Steel boat building projects nv,how to make a balsa wood picture frame,used pontoon boats for sale in tampa area map - Reviews

Published 02.10.2015 | Author : admin | Category : Plywood Jon Boat Plans

Originally Posted by LyndonJ I'd stick to conventional methods, you'l have an asset then that you can relise when you sell. On a steel boat, where you build in your details and weld them down, which would have cost exponentially more in a non metal boat, the finished steel work is thus a far greater portion of the finished boat, than it is for non metal boats.
As I point out in my book, people often fail to differentiate between resale value and resale price. The fact that McNaughton is too dense to comprehend basic geometric principles has nothing to do with structural reality. The picture above is of wooden planking ,which has no strength across the planks , which is exactly what frames were developed for.
There is nothing floppy about a finished origami hull.Such comments reveal an absolute naivety about the subject. As for the cost beatup, you were asked before just how much it would really cost on another thread (in time and dollars) to add 5 or 6 transverse bar frames to a 36 foot steel boat. Nobody said that origami hulls are floppier, they are just weaker becasue the framing is floppier than a conventional frame.
But you need to accept that some of your reasoning doesn't scale well to larger boats with much higher loads. Location: British Columbia Points 1 and 2 apply equally to longitudinals, as they are equally supported by their being welded to the hull plate, with the added structural advantage of going around a curve, yet you insist on calculating them as stand alone, with no attachment to, or support from, the hull plate. It doesn't cost much to put 6 transverse frames in a hull, once it has been pulled together using origami methods, altho I know one guy who turned a couple of frames into a several week project, to increase his total income for the job.The point I am making is, if you put the frames up first, then try put the plate on to fit the frames, the cost and time goes up exponentially. Originally Posted by Brent Swain Points 1 and 2 apply equally to longitudinals, as they are equally supported by their being welded to the hull plate, with the added structural advantage of going around a curve, yet you insist on calculating them as stand alone, with no attachment to, or support from, the hull plate. The relevance of frames is quite necessary to make the whole ship an almost corrugate systeme, with all the strength in all the direction. Now when the round plate is transformed in chine on your design, you have an intense stress point there, and that is no good practice.
As for your other boat, they all are ceiled in wood inside and seams to cost much more that a Swan. Fisherman and commercial are tough with the money, every cent is acconted, but you don't know that. By the way I would like to mention, a vessel of a certain size is never ever designed by one person, same for building. We may argue about his biased opinions, about his terribly obvious lack of understanding some basic engineering, but we cannot argue that he does it to harm or insult other members.
I know there are visitors here which cannot really get it together, where is the knowledge and where the anecdote.
Reverse clipper bows and wine glass cross sections would be difficult but practically any other single and multi chine hull form can be done in origami.
It's clear that the longitudinals go into tension, suffer stress reversals and consequently deflect more that a pre bent frame.
Originally Posted by whoosh … do these boats come with lines, as iines if one wanted to draw a body plan, for tankage floors frames etc? That can be done by the software, or you can build chine model and take the strakes patterns from it.. Originally Posted by dskira When I designed and latter on built (sorry, I built too, but that is not relevant since you want to be the only one here) if we don't put frames the vessel will have been not able to do its work properly due to wickness, let alone having the cargo capacity strength needed to pay for itself and being safe. Daniel As I only build one hull a year, a couple of weeks work, and on every on I work with the owner, who's lifelong dreams are coming true , quickly before his eyes, it never gets boring. The end of the chine where the cone begins is solid plate once the chine ends, not weld, so one is not dependent on the weld for strength.
Where Paul's mast goes thru the deck, a large doubler of heavier plate, plus some flat bars on edge eliminates the chances of anything wobbling .
The only compression on the mast is only the weight of the mast, rigging and sails on a junk rig , unlike the tremendous compression on a marconi rig.
Colvin estimates 1,000 hours for a hull and deck, something origami lets you do put together in under 100 hours. As I pointed out in the cabin top example, a curve drastically increases the stiffness of a piece of plate . None of my boats have ever had problems getting insurance at the best rates, or passing survey.
Originally Posted by Brent Swain None of my boats have ever had problems Hope it will stay that way. Location: British Columbia I have made wineglass sterns by welding the last few inches of centreline first, before cranking the deadrise out with the hydraulic jack. As Herreschoff pointed out , in smaller boats, clipper bows tend to stop a boat dead in her tracks when they hit a steep head sea. Many of my hulls have saved their owners from the disasters which would have resulted in most other cruising boats out there. The hull will need a lot of framing following on from that picture and I'm skeptical that in the long run with a vessel that size it might just re-allocate the build time. Roberts has a method which is said to be fast, its bottom plate then framing then the rest built bottom up. Location: New Jersey Steel Boat Building Techniques I am looking at a custom (homemade) 40' steel boat.
I cannot remember which book I saw it in, but I once saw a boat built in the lapstrake (clinker) style out of steel. Originally Posted by Chapman Sorry to answer your question with more questions, but I've never seen a lap joint used on shell plating with the possible exception of doubler plates being added. Although all those welds & resulting heat would be a negative, the longitudinal strength would be impressive. All those laps would also present alot of corrosion possibilities, exterior & especially interior.
Location: Australia The overlap method was common for a decade or so after the move from riveting joins to welding. Either alternate under over plating, or lapstrake or jogged seam where the overlap is heated with a torch and hammered over the lower plate till it fits snug . In all types both the inner and the outer plate edge are then fully welded to the plate below.
The boatyard saves a lot of time in fitting since you can have a large tolerance on the edges. The problem is the internal void along the overlap and if the welds don't seal completely it corrodes. Location: Maryland Actually laps have an advantage for some welding issues - you can use drag rod.
Originally Posted by CDBarry Actually laps have an advantage for some welding issues - you can use drag rod. Welding stainless steel hazards » Thread Tools Show Printable Version Email this Page Display Modes Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode Search this Thread Advanced Search Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post 10 years for building a steel sailing boat!. When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. It seems odd to see defined chines on a boat of that size, but I do like the overall feel of the boat itself.
One could come close to the same look with origami style construction, (no chines visible) with a single or double chine amidships under water. Structural strength a priority over everything else Thats something you just haven't gotten.
Originally Posted by Brent Swain .My trunk cabin has over 8,000lbs of buoyancy when inverted.
With a traditional sheer , the buoyancy in the raised ends adds considerably to ultimate stability. Originally Posted by Brent Swain Elsewhere on this site, it was mentioned that the 40 foot design that the young Aussie girl had to abandon in the Indian ocean, was put inverted in calm water by a crane, and it righted itself quickly. Originally Posted by Brent Swain I find model experiments address all these variables, far better than calculations. Location: Japan Well, it is nice to see Brent asking his friends to support him, always good to have friends, no matter how misguided their loyalty is to someone they consider a craftsman.
Brent refuses to to understand basic structural mechanics and cannot even answer a simple question, which according to Sheetwise, is easy anyone can.
Brent refuses to allow several posters who are willing to provide their FEA services for free, yes, free, to address his structural philosophy.
Unfortunately, the import aspects such as the magnitude of the load, the boundary conditions, the method of applying the loads and where it is applied, for example, are missing. Brent constantly states how quick and easy it is to build, yet only he has built them that fast. Whenever anyone asks Brent for simple clarification to simple questions, rather than getting replies or answers, as noted in the “origamimagic” website, how does Brent reply? That's a clear window into his soul and his character, and I'm not impressed with what I see. Judging by his posts in this thread, Brent's pride is based more on his ability to avoid working, than it is on the quality of his work. The fact is that competent craftsmen don't have two levels of quality for their work: one for the parts that no one will ever see, and another for the parts that show. Originally Posted by Brent Swain My trunk cabin has over 8,000lbs of buoyancy when inverted. Location: Vancouver For those who missed the point of post #410 Post #410 of this thread was written to illustrate a point, though that point - as I expected it to be - was missed by some. Post #410 was to make the point to Brent that no one likes to be called names, nor have their integrity questioned.
1) When a post quotes another post, if there is no form of separation, it seems to read as if both sentences are being stated by Brent. So, do I really believe that Brent is a liar, thief, scammer, and all of the other awful words I used to describe him?


Unless a proper X ray quality procedure weld was done, the welding would always be weaker than the plate.
Originally Posted by Brent Most steel welding is stronger than the surrounding plate, far stronger than any connections in any other material, which makes it far stronger than any loads it will encounter. A chain is as strong as its weakest link and when steel is joined by whatever method, that would be the weak link.
Most welds done by amateurs on boats are very suspect with only partial or no penetration at all, slag filled etc and with very high caps that makes welds in fact weaker and in NDT procedures would be rejected, even when done faultlessly by a professional welder. But perhaps Mike (WF), Ad Hoc and MikeJohns give us all more insight into welds as they are more qualified to do so rather than listening to the crap BS dish up.
Originally Posted by Brent Swain The "Rules' have only given us extremely expensive and labour intensive boats, which put them out of reach of far to may people.
You have choosen the latter road, so heat from NAs who have been taught for many long years only to believe hard facts is understandable. It is also interesting to note when I have decided to learn applying scantling rules in this forum, the same NAs were calling me names who now mocking Brent. Additionally, it is worth noting even before you weld, that a rolled steel plate will generally have different properties in the longitudinal, transverse and through thickness directions. Given the caveats above, testing is then conducted at what is called cross joint, or CJ tensile test.
Whilst the HAZ-parent metal has the same thickness as the parent metal, it has lower hardness owing to the low cooling rate which in turn is shown by a minor change in the grain structure. A longitudinal weld test, the force is shared more equally over a constant strength of the steel, and produces different results.
Again, the photos show the weld on the upright of the angle taking the load, being in longitudinal sheer , the weld running at a right angle to the load making the top weld far less relevant . Originally Posted by Ad Hoc Some assumptions are required, to ?generalise?, and I do stress ?generalise?. So, I assume that the column or columns are not of concern and that these as described will not buckle. BOAT PLANS BRUCE ROBERTS OFFICIAL WEB SITE offers custom boat plans and boat kits for steel boats or aluminum boat designs, cut to size boat kits, part built boats or If you are already excited about building your own steel boat and want to Brent Swain helped Paul pull that big boat together from flat steel, and the design of the Bruce Roberts International Boat Design. Metal Boat Building – True round hull designs and advice for the home How to build a better metal boat?
Now that you have the plans for your new steel boat, you've thumb tacked a few to the wall, and your friends have looked them over too many times, you should probably Since our first plans were sold for home boat construction in 1938, more than 100,000 Build In. Metal Boats Newsletter Bruce Roberts Yacht Designs offers custom boat plans and boat kits for steel boats or aluminum boat designs, cut to size boat kits boat Cut panels from the steel sheet metal that will become the hull of the boat, using the dimensions indicated on the plans. Location: Australia Yeah the overalll shape is, by an inch or two here and there, but you can't see whats inside. In fact,there is a lot of information for the homebuilder of Brent boats supplementary to Brent's willing help.
The boat is not finished either so what happened after?Maybe it all changed before launching. So the first time she washed ashore she was got off quickly with self rescue , and the second time she stayed for ever ? As an aside,it was the owner's two friends,Norm+Rudy that immediately went down from Canada and with generous help from the Steelworkers Union(for the gear)and the local people too set about the rescue.I can't remember exactly if it took more than a week to haul her but it needed tides and fair weather on the final pull. That is a 36, the first origami 36 I ever built, which pounded in that surf for 16 days and was pulled off thru the same surf , being picked up and dropped 8 to 12 feet off every wave.
In a subsequent trip, she hit off Todos Santos, and the owner went to La Paz to party for a few days.
You can take a 20 ton hydraulic jack, put it on any point of the tank top hull joint, and lift the entire hull from that point , or tie the hull down and crank the jack till it is rock hard , or put an extension on the handle and crank it until you blow a seal, and you will not make a noticeable deflection on the plate at that point. If, as you suggest, you run the webs right to the centreline , you eliminate the option of building the water tank there, unless you want a tank that has totally inaccessible corners. Evan had no problem using all his useful storage space for tankage, and raising the centre of gravity on his boat, given that he only left port once , and had huge storage space ashore. I heard on CBC radio today, a psychologist, saying that over reliance on computers to answer all ones questions, leads to a porportionate dumbing down of the user. Or the guy on this site who tells us that his 38 ft Colvin steel boat will weigh 14,000 lbs, roughly the same weight as the wooden Pipe Dream by Francis Kinney, which has planking about a third the weight of his ten gauge hull plate, or decking which is less than a third of the weight of his ten gauge. While I find Kinney's manual of calculations useful ( trapezoidal rule is as accurate as Simpson's multipliers according to Herreshoff, just not as exhibitionist) Kinney's obsession with numbers show the lack of common sense often involved. Bear in mind that one Aussie said on Cruisers forum, he found many crane scales up to 750 kilos out of whack. Another example of letting the math over rule common sense and do all our thinking for us, is the number of very expensive boats ,which do all the plumbing and electrical work ,then drop a solid hull liner in over the works. Location: British Columbia You said yourself that they were your own design, the design you had before you beefed it up after it became apparent that they were not strong enough.
Some designers won't correct a mistake no matter how obvious it becomes , for not having the huevos to ever admit a mistake.napoleon said it sometimes it takes a greater man to admit a mistake than to lead an army into battle. The selling of offsets which are the same as originally drawn, forcing the builder to correct them every time, is one common example. Using statistics of all your 21 to 35.5 foot boats and excluding the failures doesn't prove anything. Three decades and hundreds of thousands of miles of failure free offshore cruising, proves the sceptics totally full of ****.
Your engineering knowledge is abysmal and demonstrably proven so by your own design failures. In the shop where I built my first origami boat, a 26 footer, a shipwright was building a traditional wooden boat. I pulled together the 26 foot hull , decks, cabin, cockpit , keels, skeg rudder, lifelines chainplates, mooring bitts, handrails, cleats, mast step , hatches, in effect fully detailed in 21 days . On the other thread where we were trying to get you to discuss structures, it was clearly stated that your 36 design has inherant unecessary weakness, and severe stress raisers which are likely to cause fatigue failure at some stage in the vessels life if it's used at sea.
I've covered that many times in this discussion, in practical terms, which thus put them beyond your comprehension.
I have said repeatedly that you can add a day or two and a hundred or two dollars worth of material and do the job properly. While you disregard all concern about safety, couldn't give a toss about the people and their safety. Its a lot stronger than the shrouds that determine the loads on it.I also tie it in to the topsides.
As I understand, none of engineers here have demanded heavy scantlings, just good practice in boat engineering and decent documentation for backyard builders.
Several have been sold on the European market, no problem, as with Strongall and Claes Lundstrom's boats, in Sweden.
Location: British Columbia The 36 in post 205 and 206 has done the run from BC to Mexico, Hawaii and back to BC, and T boned several BC reefs at hull speed, no damage, despite having the keel supports in the drawing posted. I also don't believe for a second that your 36 design built to your plans could gain CE cert. I use computers all day some days, but it takes a lot of skill and brains and thinking to do it. I think Dudley (who happened to be a good friend of me when he was still living in South Africa, he visited my yard once a month and I commissioned his 38 ft design in 1991 then known as the Force 38) would be interested in your ridiculous claim in the 2nd paragraph quoted. Dudley did in fact worked in the steel engineering field whilst studying for his boat designer's Diploma at Westlawn before going professional full time after obtaining that Diploma.
You are quite right he follows ABS rule as a minimum standard and his designs are well engineered, although you claim he is no engineer.
Since you are no engineer and I wil repeat myself again as I did in the past which brought me a lot of flack from your disciples, you are a hillbilly.
About Dudley building and sailing his own boats; you quite right he did but what you fail to mention BS, is that he had built only plywood boats for himself which are well engineered. As for his steel designs; I can vouch for some of them as I had built a 30ft Houtbay, 38ft, 43ft, 57ft, 65ft to his designs and some of my builds also on his webpage. Not so long ago you actually bad lipped his designs on this very forum if I am not mistaken and the rip off of these building techniques to the owners pocket, so why the change of heart? Finally, why bring a reputable designer using proper scantling rules into this when you and your designs are questioned. I can show one extremely dangerous structure; the strut (pillar) which should lead the mast compression to the hull structure is in some boats welded direct to bottom shell and not to stiffener or floor!
Several have been sold on the European market, no problem, as with Strongall and Claes Lundstrom's boats, in Sweden.
So make up such a frame for a 40 footer, and I can bend it by hand, by simply putting one end against the wall and pushing on it. By itself, it is as floppy as hell, but once it is tacked down, with a 7 inch camber, with no structural members under it, six guys can stand and jump on it, without it buckling or deforming in any visible way. It will first twist the plating, second will wooble the deck, and third the mast will go thru the hull. I thought you knew that, but evidently you don't, since your very mean attack on my resume prove it.
There, a dumb welder with insufficient and outlasted licenses can blame a well established boatbuilder of being a novice.
Their excitement , and enthusiasm in seeing a hull take shape in a few hours from flat plate, is contagious.
But other than possibly ice-work, I think a proper steel boats much more than adequate strength wise. The same would go for a repair where someone welded plate over a bad section instead of properly cutting the section out and insetting a new piece, a matter of fact, plate over plate would be much worse I would think. We had a yard bulding a boat here that was offering a discount to plate this way but local DNV were not happy.
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So keep the beam moderate and use trunk cabins and wheelhouses, stick to that which enhances ultimate stability throughout the design, and you won't have a problem.
It does not address displacement, instability and fatigue, nor multiaxial loading, which all boats must account for in structural design. This sadly reduces the images to just nice pretty pictures and no basis for real comparison.
Perhaps, a few members will recall that I have done this before, and that I waited a day, or so, before explaining why I made the post, as I am doing so now. It was also to make the point to those who are friends or fans of Brent, that members, such as myself, become angry when Brent calls someone whom we respect a less than favourable name, or makes personal attacks, simply because they do not share his views.
Yes, it would have been nice to see the transverse framing thread answer the OP's question, rather than see Brent try to push his concept of building without them - which is what originally lit the fuse, imho - and I'd like to think that Brent might, in the future, send a private message to someone if his sole determination is to sell his plans, rather than to answer a question. However, he does not have the knowledge to give advice on welding & should get himself a few books from the library shelf, so he can research the information before offering his opinion. More worrisome is the fact that most of the welds are grind smooth leaving very little left.
They have paid zero attention to the biggest obstacle to people living out their cruising dreams , time and money. Do the calculations which have been done behind the rules for himself, and choose safety factors to optimize for the design goal.
For example, the steel is basic low carbon grade A type, it is not thermally or mechanically treated to improve its properties.
This is a test across the joint, from parent metal to HAZ to weld and back to the parent metal the other side, ie transverse to the weld. The reason being is the temperature increase during welding affects the final grain structure, it changes size and that the HAZ edge furthest away from the weld, has a lower cooling rate. This calculates the rate of cooling and thus predicts the hardening effcts during welding and is based upon the chemical composition.
The reason being that all welds contain flaws be they minor or major, this cannot be avoided (this too is a whole subject in itself). The one previos picture the support pipes were not tied into the webs and I agree it would be better tied in. I should know, I constantly come across BRUCE ROBERTS OFFICIAL WEB SITE for custom boat plans and boat kits for steel boats or aluminum boat designs, cut to size boat kits, part built boats or complete boats.
Boat Building Ideas Plus step-by-step text in a manual for aluminum boat building or steel boat building. THAT is what supports the ends of the transverse webs , thru the gussets , not at one point , but at eight points around the hull, the forces being transmitted to the tank top edge thru the gussets, over a length of several feet, not point loads. I guess the only way to get an accurate weight is to run the boat movers trailer with the boat on it over a highway scale, then run the empty trailer over it.
When something goes wrong , you have to to cut a hole in the liner, only after you have figured out exactly where the problem is. I don';t mind admitting I didn't know everything there is to know about a new technology the first time out.
Being a start from zero experience with origami, we had a lot to learn, as is always the case with all new technology.
What works for a 21 footer isn't necessarily valid for a 36 or a 40 and invalid for a 57 or a 60 footer. The 36 wa so successful that I didn't see any point in changing the shape of that which had worked so well.
Since there is no redundancy in your structure it could be seriously catastrophic, for example, if it's in the middle of a severe storm. The European authors will insist changes in structure of BS boats, if they appear to European market.
It may have been quite a different story of the twin keel had been dropping onto her keels. Quite so, but at least he is using scantling rules that are calculated and proven over many years which makes his designs well accepted by builders and owners. Construction is simple when using the building methods specified BUILD FROM CUTTING FILES using CUTTING FILES & gravy holder plans If you want to build in steel operating theatre aluminum and you want.
On a price per substantial substructure groundwork steel is probably the cheapest of all boatbuilding materials.
Resale value is the difference between what you can get for a boat and what she cost you in the first place. The attached framing limits damage and provides safe stress paths which is not only a strength and stiffness issue but also a fatigue issue. Since your method of framing is floppier for being pre-stressed then the hull structure will buckle more easily. It does develop soft spots once the longitudinal welds are done , which is why I force flat bar beams up under it, on 18 centres , along the direction of the curve, like longitudinals , not fore and aft, across the curve , like transverse frames. The deck is weakest point, the design need more attention since some renforcement can be detrimental localizing the stress inset of diffusing it.
The only thing that was missing this time, unless I missed it, was Brent's predictable ballistic response.
When Brent's posts contain multiple quotes, it's just too damn much work to go back & find each quote. I do believe that Brent does mislead, at times, and that he allows others to misinterpret, without correcting them.
In nearly 40 years of cruising, I haven't seen any weld failures on finished boats, despite most being built by amateurs, with no welding credentials. The cross joint strength is usually required to exceed the minimum specified UTS of the parent metal. In other words, this outer edge of the HAZ has a slightly lower yield stress or UTS than the surrounding plate and weld. Your new setup IMHO you have added more support from the inside edge of the keels out to the chines but if you look at the end view drawing the inside edges of the keels and support angles stop, there is no support till you get down into the sides of tanks where the webs get wider. This already puts you well below the loads you describe, even before 20-30 years of corrosion reduces the plate thickness further. In the middle part (most of the boat) the origami is a simple V-bottom structure and should be engineered as one.
I figure that Brent may have the same problem that I do, which is that I still haven't figured out how to multi-quote. I know that Brent shows a lack of respect for anyone who disagrees with him, as well as, those he is in competition with. You have to deliberately screw up, and work hard at it, to get it any weaker than the surrounding metal. This way one will have a boat with known strength and stability, with a carefully decided risk built in. This way you can have strong and sturdy boats, but you will never know how strong are they actually. In most situations the weld metal is stronger than the parent metal - it is oversized - so that failure occurs in the parent metal or the HAZ at a stress above the specified minimum. Now if you emagine the same forses that bent up the old design in the new one, Rather than being bent up into the hull it looks more like the hul skins will shear at the tank top along the inside edges where the angle supports stop? Before I wrote the book,I'd sit down with the builder and tell them what was happening in the photos, and they would record it . It's not how much material you put in a structure that makes it effective, it's where you put the material. Highest strake stays in one piece, lower strakes are cut in the middle and ends of the plates are connected.
My current boat, with about three inches of outside curve , goes thru a head sea far more smoothly, with far less resistance.The buildup of buoyancy is far less sudden.
Perhaps, the most maligned of the latter, would be Thomas Colvin, who Brent appears to have some deep dislike for. 7024 has a tensile and compression strength of 70,000 lbs , in a surrounding metal of 60,000 lbs I did my apprenticeship as a Boilermaker and worked in a refinery (Sasol) as well as power stations where only top welds (X Ray) are performed by qualified welders and still I had seen a few of those weld failed where the pipes were sheared off on the weld.
To get your stick out off to angstrom unit quick eventide thusly with a few all important metal boat building tricks lettered it is not a lot trouble to avert distortion altogether inwards a decade calibre.
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The deck is weakest point, the design need more attention since some renforcement can be detrimental localizing the stress inset of difusing it. The realities at sea are that you have some dangerous design features that could fail nastily and they need improving. It is in humble recognition of these limitations and the desire to improve on them where we experience our greatest growth. No one has had any problem building their own with book and plans, and they tell me that every question they had, they found the answer in the book and plans. So you can get a reduced puncture resistance if you want, but I'd still put the required framing in. As Brent has no issues with being disrespectful to others, I feel no reluctance to treat him in the same manner. It is where you put the material ,and for puncture resistance, it's best put in plate thickness. The only rust I could find was was in the butt welded deck plate where one side door has been leaking for some time.



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