Location: FL Canoe Hull Design Some of you may be aware of the annual Civil Engineering competition that involves producing a concrete canoe.
Over the past two years we have developed a mix design through research and testing that will perform as needed. As a Civil Engineering student, we are educated in the properties of concrete and its capabilities. Any advice on where to look to learn the basics for a canoe type hull design will much appreciated. I dont know much about canoe design but as a former D1 rower and mechanical engineer I cant tell you what makes those boats go fast. Try training by tying a rope to a coffee can and trowing it off the back of a normal canoe. These pieces are by John Winters, who is one of the most respected designers of canoes in the modern fashion. I design canoes and kayaks as well as other small craft and I can give you some basics that will get you rolling to a workable design for your race.
A 20' canoe with a 28-32" beam is going to be on the tippy side of things unless you guys can successfully sit on the bottom of the boat. The kneeling position is much more powerful for paddling as you can take a longer stroke and apply more power to each stroke.
There is a simple design software available called Bearboat Pro which would be perfect for your needs in creating a smooth hulled canoe form.
I know the idea is to learn about concrete and design process but I felt the UT effort did not put much emphasis into tuning the engine. Location: Upper Midwest Reduce your gunwale height to the bare minumum you need. Guest625101138 Previous Member   The Godzilla optimisation that Corey M did for the 2008 UT canoe was based on infinite depth of water. Originally Posted by southernengenr Some of you may be aware of the annual Civil Engineering competition that involves producing a concrete canoe. Other then these specifications it’s up to the team's discretion for determining the gunwale height, rocker, and all the other perimeters for the hull design. I was planning on building a practice canoe out of the mold left from last year’s canoe.
Note: This is a picture of the mold before we trimmed the excess fiberglass off around the gunwale. Chris Ostlind Previous Member   OK, let's look at these things in order and get some kind of organized design process going. First of all, virtually everything you were told by Rick Willoughby is going to effective when it comes to getting that optimal hull. The mold shown is not what I would have arrived at should I be designing a fast (and moderately stable canoe for this kind of competition. You only have so much horsepower available and it is highly unlikely that a square sterned design will see anything even close to the kind of power that would make use of the form. The gunnel height of the lowest point in the hull can be as low as 9" above the water surface when fully loaded and still provide a decent degree of preventative action against wave associated swamping.
It would be good to review any video of previous years to see what happens to the water when the race starts. Guest625101138 Previous Member   I would like to know how points are awarded. Guest625101138 Previous Member   Attached shows what I am thinking for a canoe. The students from the academic year before last (2007) designed a hull as you mentioned (tapered at both ends). On another note, most teams chose to steer their canoe from the bow by sticking the paddle in the water perpendicular the direction of movement and then paddle the stern around.
I understand that the paddling technique can be just as important as the hull design itself. When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals.
In any conversation with prospective clients, one of my primary concerns is how many pounds will the boat be expected to carry. Displacement is simply the amount of water expressed in pounds that will be displaced by the boat when loaded.
This is an expression of the optimum weight displaced intended by the designer for the boat to perform as designed. However with only two light weight paddlers and no load, it is an unpleasant craft for casual excursions on windy days. Lightly loaded it sits well above its design waterline and presents too much freeboard for enjoyable paddling on windy days.
Ideally the design elements you consider will deliver the most efficient hull for the kind of paddling most of the time. On occassion you will find a figure called "pounds per inch of immersion." This number is useful in comparing designs. Much of a hulls drag comes in the form of skin or surface drag as the water moves across the wetted surface of the hull.
Taken to extremes, extra length becomes a liability, not an advantage as the surface drag on a longer boat becomes excessive. A difference of six inches can make a difference both on the water and in the garage if storage is tight. In simple terms it is an expression of how fine or pointy the ends are and useful for comparing one design to another. A flat bottom doesn't present much lateral resistance and can skid sideways in a stiff wind. Look at a hull from the side and observe its profile or shape lengthwise along the bottom or keel line. With little lateral area at the ends of the hull it is easy to turn, especially on top of a wave. Inexperienced paddlers feel more secure in a wide stable hull so this is a consideration if you are new to paddling. Kayaks are generally faster than canoes of a given length because they are typically narrower. Kayakers sit just above the bottom of their craft and may actually sit below the waterline.
The added width means more surface area, increased drag and has a negative impact on speed. Freeboard is the vertical distance of the sides from the waterline to the sheer or gunwale. LCB is the distance from the start of the waterline to the center of the volume the hull displaces. The center of the displaced volume is called a 'centroid' but LCB is just the x direction component of its coordinates. The center of buoyancy as an imaginary focus of all vertical forces that keep the hull afloat. Unlike large vessels, canoe and kayak stability can be more a matter of perception than scientific evaluation.
The definition can be rather subjective depending on the experience of the person paddling. In its simplest terms stability is the boata€™s tendency to stay level with the surface of the water. Low primary stability makes a boat easier to paddle in rough conditions such as high waves.
Keels are useful in sailing canoes to help reduce leeway or drifting sideways while under sail. To aid straight line tracking a shallow vee at the base of the hull will mimic the tracking effect of a keel.
A keel is not suited for river travel as it typically will be the keel that gets caught on rocks. When you paddle you push water around the bow or front of the boat, under it and out the back or stern. Any profile which flares out over the water can provide better secondary and final stability to a point. Too much flare makes the boat wider and likely will interfere with paddling when taken to an extreme.
The side profile of the hull can generally be broken down into slab or flat sided, flared sides and tumblehome.
It is possible to have flare just above the waterline and tumblehome at the upper most edges.


At the stern the asymmetrical boat is made a€?fullera€? in an effort to keep the stern from being pulled down when paddled hard.
This arrow-like shape promotes speed but may inhibit maneuverability especially under sail.
The boats typically have a long flat run from bow to stern with a slight uplift at either end to aid in turning. Sitting lower in the water will also lower the center of gravity again creating more stability.
Ideally build the lightest boat conditions permit given the situations you regularly encounter while paddling.
Mud and gravel on shoes, collecting firewood, tackle boxes, shuffling camping gear will readily abrade a finish. While commercial some designs are great, the advent of mass production efficiency in the factory takes precedence. Some design compromises are made to facilitate the limits of the material and the production method used. Production efficiency and a broad appeal to cater to a market large enough to recoup development costs. The lining-off of planking is a design consideration and is not difficult if care is taken. It doesna€™t take long to learn therea€™s no such thing as a one-size-fits-all canoe design. The most easily identified characteristics are length, width (or beam) and depth, but understanding the effects of things like rocker and hull shape are important, too. The distance from the tip of the stern to the tip of the bow, this simple measurement has a big impact on performance. Also measured in three placesa€“bow, stern and centera€“depth affects more subtle aspects of paddling. These hulls look just like they sound: the canoea€™s belly has very little curve, making it highly stable on calm water. Exactly the opposite of the flat bottom, the belly of a round bottom canoe is extremely curved. Designed to give paddlers the stability of a flat hull and the flexibility of a round hull, shallow arches are increasingly popular.
Another blend of the flat and round hull, the shallow vee incorporates a v-shape at the bottom of the arch.
If they flare out above the waterline, they will resist tipping and deflect water for a drier ride.
If ease and stroke perfection are required, such as in racing, a canoe may have tumblehome, with the gunwale width smaller than the waterline width.
Once you have the basics, pay attention to a few additional characteristics that bend the rules: rocker, entry line, and fullness.
Heavy, moderate or straight linea€“a canoe with a lot of rocker will act shorter because less of its belly actually sits in the water.
Canoes designed with a sharp entry lines will move with efficiency and speed, whereas canoes designed with blunt entry lines are less efficient but will provide more buoyancy in heavy waves.
Stems create the shape of the bow and stern ends of a canoe and their profiles can be squared or rounded. A square stem improves a canoea€™s tracking performance and a rounded stem improves a canoea€™s steering and maneuverability.
A canoe shape or design, as measured from the bow, that reaches fullness quickly will provide more carrying capacity and stability. Location: Coastal Georgia Fiberglass or aluminum window screen might work well for reinforcement. You should do yourself a favour and copy selected images of the design and build before Corey kills the site. If you want to rank well and make the nationals then you need to know how points are awarded and put someone in charge of each aspect.
I have been playing around with Delftship, Michlet, and Godzilla as Rick and others had advised. 2) Is it advisable to cut away the deadwood at the bow after Godzilla optimizes to reduce wetted surface and help with maneuverability? 6) I was thinking about incorporating some tumblehome in the mid section to help the paddlers. Sorry for the gamut of questions, I'm just trying to get this done over the next week or so. I had previously looked over that thread, but I apparently missed where you explained how to get those shapes in Godzilla. Have you ever seen for mentioned that error when trying to import the offsets into Delftship? Give me a design weight, maximum length and target speed then I will use Godzilla to produce the optimum hard chine hull. Guest625101138 Previous Member   I remembered I had already done this one based on Corey's data. Guest625101138 Previous Member   The KM is low because I have used little immersion.
The issue with this design will be locating the paddlers so they can stroke clear of the gunwale. If you think the rules will permit it you would be better off building ply version of the faux-tri to get geometry sorted.
Guest625101138 Previous Member   THe attached compares your GodHull with the central hull of the faux-tri through speed range.
A canoe that big will have to have a fair amount of rocker or it will not turn well at all. The recent trend is toward increasingly fine waterlines forward and enough reserve buoyancy aft to allow the helmsman to be about 500mm further aft than previously possible.
In light air, it is necessary to move way forward to keep the fat *** out of the water, even so the lower wetted area ( pointier stern) boats are faster.
Construction is in a female jig, so foam and composite, tortured ply, and strip are all options. Location: Anacortes,WA Just curious (I don't know anything about anything) Is the LCB on current designs in about the same place?
Helmsman is such a big proportion of the displacement that the LCB pretty much follow him around.
Location: UK Any idea of the hulls weight fully ready for sailing excluding rig and seat. Location: Narragansett Bay RI Class minimum weight for complete boat less sails is 50kg. Location: Cocoa Beach, Florida Ic Steve, where do you see the major areas of development under the new rules? Originally Posted by Steve Clark Class minimum weight for complete boat less sails is 50kg.
I should have listened to Willy and you five years ago when you guys were gently trying to steer my interests to the IC. The minimum weight for the new design IC's seems to be set a little too low for the average garage ply builder to hit target, so unfortunately the arms race will result in a divided class separating the rich from the poor (at least theoretically). Optimal composite construction techniques are achievable in less than optimal facilities, but require a minimum level of equipment, skill and non-recurring engineering and tooling expense.
Builders usually take quite a bit of time creating the original male pattern - because mistakes with this are repeated on every copy made.
Creating the material layup schedule, fitting core material and then achieving a final composite structure with just enough resin (for light weight and maximum strength) requires skills (& equipment) I don't have right now - vacuum bagging, resin infusion etc. All this is before you start dealing with internal structure, adding bulkheads, decking etc.
Long decks, outside stems and oval cherry gunwales create a frame so strong that no thwarts are needed on the beautiful Molitor. Someone who can build a decent boat in plywood will easily build a decent boat in foam epoxy, but of course it always helps if there's a mate you can touch base with for skills transfer. Top flange is correct for the changing bevel of the deck, so you build the whole boat in the jig.
Location: Rockport, Maine & Rochester Hills, Michigan BobBill, have you considered starting your own thread about your questions on your project? Originally Posted by DCockey BobBill, have you considered starting your own thread about your questions on your project?
I would like some recommendations for books and software that would be helpful for creating an optimal canoe hull design. I'd much rather see a boat that is tapered at both ends than a boat with a square stern section such as the one shown.


Putting on a small engine or a nice piece of sail area and we can talk about square sterns, otherwise, they are not the best. If it gets whipped into a churning mess with confused waves, then a slightly higher gunnel will save you in big ways.
It's way faster than any other building method, will cost the least with simple taped seams and allow you to get a feel for a boat of the type you are proposing.
With fewer students than most engineering programs to work on these projects, we have to individually work harder than most schools to compete at the same level.
All things being equal, the longer the hull on the waterline the higher the hull speed, to a point.
With all else equal, a longer canoe is faster, tracks a straighter line and provides more carrying capacity than a shorter one. Most manufacturers provide three measurements: the gunwale, the waterline and the widest point.
Increasing depth provides more carrying capacity and freeboard, allowing the canoe to paddle through waves with more ease.
Built for speed and efficiency, they can be difficult to balance in an upright positiona€“particularly for inexperienced paddlers.
Keels were originally integrated into canoe designs for structural purposesa€“to literally help hold the canoe together. Some paddlers find flared canoes uncomfortable to paddle because it requires reaching out over the side of the canoe. Some have straight sides, which provide no particular benefit or limitation, and others combine both in the same watercraft. However, if the fullness is reached slowly, the canoe has been designed for speed; giving way capacity and stability. One is not that much different from the other, especially in paddling techniques or getting in shape.
This plastic affair was nothing more than a extra thick surfboard with molded seat and foot wells.
At 17’ long this hand-crafted canoe is one that you will want to hang up and display as art work. They tend to feel very secure on calm water but become slightly less comfortable as the waves get larger or as you lean to one side.
Moderate rocker in a canoe means it will turn easily on the water but can also track well for short to longer distance paddling. With some practice, you can probably get to the point where you are kneeling in the boat with a fat foam cushion under your butt for support. It has documentation and you will be able to get a shape in process which you can refine as you go.
Pure racing C2 canoes are not as stable and would be a real problem for your team if you are not experienced paddlers of this type of boat.
The best hull on the planet won't mean squat if the guys aboard are complete doofs, or the stability has been trimmed to the point where only Oly class guys can make it work. The difference in performance between a slick, smooth chined design and a nicely crafted, mutichine design is about 1-1.5%, so the results will closely match whatever you will do with the concrete version.
They do what the steersman says, they keep their weight low and centered and pull with all they have in measured effort for the whole race. The tradeoff is decreased maneuverability: a longer canoe cana€™t make the tight turns or respond as quickly as some paddling demands.
The 4a€? waterline accounts for displacement when fully loaded and tells you the most about performance.
Some err toward initial stability with less arch, and others strive to provide more maneuverability. It does, however, result in a higher surface area in the water, which can make the canoe less efficient. Experts disagree on whether keels, in general, have a significant impact on performance but most agree that keels make canoes track better but limit paddling efficiency. I tried kneeling on the thing to give some muscles a rest and spent too much energy trying to stay balanced. For molds he uses female plywood station molds, cut by CNC router, at 12" or so spacing (may be closer). Considered to be one of the original “courting” canoes, the Molitor captures the look and feel of what a canoe design used to be at the turn of the century. Flat bottom canoes are great for the sportsmen and general weekend warrior looking for a solid platform. Someone with a reasonable sized workshop declares open house for a weekend, and people gather, some with projects of various sizes.
The pics are very explicit and the method is rather simple, not high tech but the results are truly very good. But often when I see the final products I have the feeling that all these technics were more for the marketing. MO is not complicated like that slick boat Clark put up, but still worried about details of project. If it is windy and there are waves present without any boats doing anything, then nothing works better than a boat that can ride decently high and dry.
This guy needs to be calm, yet highly competitive and ready to bark out orders when they are needed.
To encapsulate the rebar it would increase the thickness of the hull and add more weight by way of concrete. A canoe built for efficiency allows you to paddle fast with less effort, whereas a canoe built for maneuverability makes turns quickly and easily. But that doesna€™t mean a long canoe will be hard to steera€“it just might not be the best choice for things like whitewater. A narrow canoe tends to be faster but less stable, whereas a wider canoe provides more stability at the expense of some efficiency. The result is an impressive selection that promises something for everyone, but it does require research, talking to experts, and even trying canoes out before purchasing.
Much too unstable to do that, so I went back to setting my tush where it was designed to be placed.
The foam strips are laid into the mold, very similar to the way a wood strip hul would be built. They experienced people provide skills transfer, the people with projects get help, and the people who are new to all this look and learn. Dont get me wrong, even if you are doing wet layup over battens you have plenty of battens, but its fairly rigid stuff: 8mm foam is, I guess, not noticeably more floppy than 3mm plywood.
That shows that in small boats it's not necessary to go to complex methods, but to use at its best a good simple method.
Was only after process info, and should have done it, but the material here was fascinating and forgot about it, especially the Lindahl site link and the F boat link Doug provided. It helps if he knows the various basic canoe strokes really well, so he can tell the other guys what to do and when. Understanding design elements will help you narrow the sometimes dizzying selection of canoes and make an informed decision. For most uses you may find that the efficiency gained in tracking will outweigh any extra effort required for turning.
The exotics are much more forgiving in that you can spot something that's not quite right and reinforce or otherwise sort it so much more easily.
Then you just add and take away stuff until its as close to fair as your patience will stand. That's also pretty expensive and sailing is loosing people, the boats are truly out of reach for low medium income people, or for DIY. Shoe keels were designed with a low profile to slide over rocks found in both shallow and white water and are more commonly used on river tripping canoes.
I saw a sample and thought he used vacuum bagging but he said it was just knowing how to use a squegee.
The trouble with foam carbon isn't skill so much as the finishing work and all the dust (I hate the dust) and stuff. Its awfully depressing if you look at say Chris Maas' workmanship and think, I could never do that. Maybe its not quite trick enough to win a worlds, but the chances of it doing that with me steering are exactly zero anyway so what does it matter?



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