This is because the contemplated use for many is as a cottage, so performance under way is second to how much volume is aboard in a slip at lowest annual cost.
BATAAN View Public Profile View BATAAN's Gallery Find all posts by BATAAN « Vintage Hydroplane? When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Can I use this transmission with this setup and run a downright huge or aggressive multi blade prop? I have been told that a 1:1 ratio box is recommended, but some of the reading I have done suggests that reduction gears are better suited to this application. I was hoping to go with this Trans, as I already have it, and it has the 8 degree drop output, allowing me to mount the engine level in the boat, as opposed to a 1:1 straight thru, where the engine will have to be tilted in the boat, obviously.
To be precise with the ratio, we need to know the quality of the shaft as there are substantial differences in strength between different ss steels.
This is a mild Big Block, and as such engine RPM will be kept well under 6k, most likely 5,500 RPM at WOT is what I would be shooting for. The boat with the other drive I have shown, similar to mine, runs a small block ~300HP a 1:1 box and attains speeds of about 45knts if I remember correctly. Location: Bay Area No Problem, have a good evening, and thanks for you help!
I was trying to avoid putting the powerglide in the boat, as it will move the engine further away from the transom, and using the thrust block adds complications to the project. Originally Posted by luso Does the AVS mean the angle that the boat can heel and right itself up? Motion comfort ratio was stablished by designer Ted Brewer to give a clue about the quality of the transverse motions of a sailing boat. From my point of view (I've stated this before), comfort is an important component of seaworthiness for cruising boats.
Originally Posted by lazeyjack Fast boats are not dangerous boats, neither are slow boats safe boast, if you get my drift, but fast boasts get you there, why wallow around like a drunk pig, when you can sail there? So, I guess that regarding safety, STIX is a good indicator, and the comfort you need is a very personal thing, and varies as much as the different kind of cruising boats that are suitable to do Ocean passages, from the very heavy boats with small rigs that you favor to the very fast cruising racers. Regarding STIX I have shown that some cruiser-racers have a superior STIX number than some boats that are regarded as more suitable to cruising. I guess that I would chose one in between those two, but it is just my personal choice and I would not disapprove of any other choice, providing that the boat has the seaworthiness that it is needed and suits the sailors that will crew it ( the comfort and pleasure of sailing).
Originally Posted by Guillermo I'd appreciate very much if you could provide me with the stability curves of the boats you listed in your last post (Do those curves indicate downflooding angle?). I don’t know if I can have the stability curves of some of those boats, because if I will have them, they will not come from the internet and I will have to search. Modern well designed boats (as almost all big production sailing boats) have a relatively high downflooding angle (more than 100º). I will try to help you, but I don’t understand why you want to perform an approximate STIX calculation for those boats, if I have given you the exact STIX number, according to ISO 12217. I will post a curious comparison of several GH and RM curves and STIX numbers of several very different sailboats, among them a very fast ocean cruiser racer (IMS WASA 41) with a high STIX number.
Regarding the Bavaria 37, I agree that intact stability is very important, as well as the downflooding angle. For example, normally the most common opinion is that older and heavier boats were always safer and more seaworthy boats, with better overall stability, if compared with newer models.
Let?s look at the Swan 44 MK2 (1996), an actualization of the MK1 (1989) designed by Frers 17 years ago.
Another example : older, heavier and narrow boats are always more seaworthy than lighter, modern and beamier boats (and I chose as an example of the heavier boat one that is renowned by its seaworthiness, the Contessa 32). Here you have boats for all tastes, the ones that Guillermo likes, slow, heavy and very comfortable, like the Fisher 37 or the Island Packet 380, or the middle weights that I prefer, that go from the heavier Regina to the lighter Malo (that one would be my pick) to an Extreme cruiser racer, the Prima 38, not clearly for my age?.but if I were 25 years younger, I would be very tempted to cruise and race with that boat.
Location: Portugal Guillermo I have been preparing a reference STIX list, but it is a never ending thing, so I will post it incomplete and I will add more data when I have time to search. As I'm interested in more deeply analize STIX through its numbers and its implications, I think we could focuse on a couple of boats (to compare them, precisely because things may not be what they seem), for which we could get as many detailed info as possible. Also very interesting should be to compare the old 44 from Sparkman & Stephens with the 44 Mk2 from Frers. I have begun to gather info on those boats, but unluckily the info, even at Nautors' pages is not good enough. If you do not have GZ curves for those models (44, 44 MK & 45) we may try to get them from Nautor, for the Mmsc load condition. More: In this Swans' case, the 7+2,25*LBS values are 35,48 for the 45 and 32,89 for the MK II.
Nice paper, but about a program for sailboat design: ?The CEM as presented here, is a first small step, on the way to a powerful tool in sailing yacht design?. STIX has nothing to do with Yacht design, quite the opposite: it is an evaluation for an existing Yacht about its stability and seaworthiness. It is in that sense that RYA says that: ?just the same way it is mandatory for the fuel consumption of all new cars to be published?that stability information should also be available to a buyer of a boat?. STIX is only an easily understandable index (but found through a complicated calculation that takes into account a lot of different stability factors) that is, in the RYA opinion (and mine), the most sophisticated stability screening tool available.
Certainly very superior to the old ones, that in many cases were very misleading and were not unified. Personally I take a look at the STIX for having a general idea, but my evaluation is done independently by the analysis of the RM curve and done by a close examination of the boat (and I mean not a virtual one), with answers about the way it is built and the kind of materials that are used.
I agree with you in what concerns the misleading importance of the LOA and LWL of the two Swan boats, regarding STIX. For what you want, I think the best will be a comparison between the Swan 45 and the 46, both very recent boats, but also very different ones: one a racer, with some cruising in mind, the other a pure cruising boat.
I have my proper suspicions about the way STIX can mislead, when comparing very different boats, but I don?t want to influence you.
The racer has a higher STIX(57) and the cruiser a lower one (53) and it is a much heavier boat.
If you read carefully the CEM (which is a designing tool) paper (see at the end of point 4.2 there), you'll realize it estimates the STIX number, among many other things, as it is an important data right from the very early stages of design. Originally Posted by Guillermo Also I would like to study boats with their STIX between 32 and 40.
It?s a shame, but to the manufacturers, STIX is only important to get their boats classified as Class A and as the requirements for that are very low, it is only on boats with less than 36ft that they have to ?control? it on the design process. For what you want (information about those tricks) I would suggest that you got information on the new OVNI 345.
I don?t have the data on that boat, but if you ask that to the Alubat Spanish importers (Argonautica), they will get it for you (it will depend on the way you ask ).
I will see what information I have on boats that are classified as Class A and obviously are close to the limit (light 34ft with low AVS and a big negative stability).


On ABS rules, the only rule dealing with under 80 ft boats is ORY-37, which only deal with sailboat structure. Use the form below to delete this 10511d1164748620 Sailing Boats Stability Stix Old Ratios Rm 1200jpg image from our index. Use the form below to delete this Sailing Boats Stability STIX And Old Ratios Page 15 Boat Design image from our index. Use the form below to delete this Sailing Boats Stability STIX And Old Ratios Page 9 Boat Design image from our index.
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Use the form below to delete this Boats See Current Models At New 2014 J Daysailer About image from our index. Use the form below to delete this Stability Through Low Aspect Wharram Wingsail Rig Large Open Centre image from our index. Use the form below to delete this Maltese Falcon Sailing Yacht For FSX By Deltasim Studio image from our index. Originally Posted by Crag Cay It always amuses me that boat designers have this fascination with these complex formulae and their inherent trade offs. For all this information to be accessible to the buying public, it should be presented to them in answer to all the natural questions they have when looking for boat.
If these guys don?t really know how to interpret those data, how do you expect the average buyer to do it?
STIX has the advantage of simplicity in its interpretation, the bigger the better, and even if far from perfection, it can give you an approximate idea of the boat?s stability.
Originally Posted by Antonio Alcala .I am convinced of it because I sail 28 years ago, and the last 8 sailing alone. Regarding STIX and Class A bots, I was not talking about Maximum Security, but about Minimum requirements for a Class A boat. Only AVS has to be taken with care because it usually gives values under the real thing, as it doesn't take into account volumes over deck. I find STIX a much more misleading info than 'Old' ratios, as we have seen thoroughly through this thread. If you have examples to support your statement with numbers, I'd appreciate your posting here.
Originally Posted by Vega overestimating the average knowledge of the typical boat buyer. If all the input data for STIX was available to prospective buyers, they could make informed choices trading off good and bad points between boats.
By the way, at YW magazine's last issue there is a nice comparative analysis of Dehler 44, Grand Soleil 43 and Maxi 1300, and STIX is not even mentioned for any of them. Location: Portugal Stix in the Vellux 5 Oceans Could anybody bring us, the stability curves and STIX of the Vellux 5 Oceans 60 feet?. Location: Portugal About Beneteaus Here you have a complete list of Beneteau, except some models, with their STIX.
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Use the form below to delete this Orange Sunset Over The Indian Ocean With Old Sailing Boat image from our index. Use the form below to delete this Identify My Old Wooden Sailing Boat Please Design Forums image from our index. Be cautioned because even if you get the optimum hull lines as far as resistance and wave making is concerned, you still need to get the highest efficiency in powering. Although the formula was originally developed for studying planing hulls, it can be also used for fast round bilge semi displacement craft. This usually is lower than AVS, and when reached we can no longer talk about intact stability, as we are doing here.
When we bought the boat it was empty inside just the bare hull so I measured everything including the caverns and the thickness of the metal hull.
A tired crew may come into dangerous situations, and we are talking here about the RCD, which is intended for the recreational market, not the racing one.
I hope it helps, if not, please tell me what you want exactly and I will see what I can find. Or, looking the other way around, the amount of comfort that you will be willing to trade for speed and sail pleasure.


I'm going to digitalize images from Nautor's pages and convert them to CAD (I'll do that at the office, next Monday), to be able to get some of the needed (but not publicised) measurements as accurately as possible.
That's quite a difference, greatly influencing the STIX calculation, which's factors just correct up and down the 7+2,25*LBS figure, what we may call the 'basic' STIX number for a boat. If we compare the STIX value posted by Vega for the MK II, we find the several Factors correcting the 'basic' STIX make for an increase of 15,5% (coming from 32,89 to 38).
It's a very interesting paper about a very interesting program for parametric first stages of design estimative. It is intended not for professional, but for the common user, just to give him a correct idea of the seaworthiness of a given boat. Special incidence in the way the keel is fixed to the boat, about the rudder and about the hatches and all the ?glass? surfaces and the way they are secured to the boat.
You produce a rule and inmediately all designers will try to stretch it as fully as possible.
Probably his designer will do the trick and make that boat go into A category, from the very beginning. I mean the average consumer doesn?t even know what it is and almost nobody in the boat industry uses the STIX to advertise the qualities of their boats. The figures are available anyway, so wouldn't require more disclosure by the manufactures, but at the moment the relevancy of this information is lost when stirred together into the 'pot purri' of STIX or Categorisation. So let's build on this second point by developing an information system that is accessible, meaningful, workable and allows the consumer to really make sound choices in the boats they want to buy. The sellers will not have a clue about what you are talking about and the boat manufacturers don?t disclose that information to the public. Fact is that even professional specialized press, completely disregard the information about safety stability in the boats they are testing for their magazines. Those were very inaccurate tools that are only applicable (and very roughly) to a certain type of boat. Two different boats with the same number,and one of them is going to look obviously more suitable for the conditions in mind to the prospective customer. These basic numbers arent always available and old ratios are therefore difficult to compute when consumers really want to compare boats.
Beneteaus are rather conceived as light, comfortable (home-like) and relatively cheap coastal cruisers than all weather bluewater globetrotters. A better clue to the quality of motions is the natural rolling period of a boat in seconds, T. We also have a hack on jib that we where thinking about replacing it with a roller furling and on the front inner stay we have a yankee hank on that we are thinking of also replacing it with a furling. This will permit us to have an alphabetical data bank on STIX and AVS (all data is according with ISO 12217).
What I've stated (And still maintain) is that in my opinion heavier boats are generally speaking more inherently safe for all around short handed ocean cruising than light boats. We can see here the great advantage STIX gives to bigger flotation lengths against hull lengths, favouring plumb bows against longer overhangs (I think this is one of the reasons for this trend in many modern designs). Not that these are the only important points, but if special care is taken with these ones, there is a good possibility that all the others are well taken care of.
As a matter of fact, what I'm interested in, is analizing the ways STIX can be stretched to produce boats fulfilling the different categories requirements, being the 'A' the most significative, as well as finding the incongruencies and weaknesses that, as any other human system, it has. As a matter of fact, what I'm interested in, is in analizing the ways STIX can be stretched to produce boats fullfilling the different categories requirements, being the 'A' the most significative, as well as finding the incongruencies and weaknesses that, as any other human system, it has. Even the British press that usually publish the GZ or RM curves of the boats they test, don?t make any comments about them, neither when they are very bad, nor extremely good. I've studied both the Final Report of the Directors and the Inquiry about the '79 Fastnet Race and I find the approach to the CSF formula at the report (named 'capsize screen value' there) to be very valid. Buyers are more likely to understand a boats character and make a reasonable judgement, without this new layer of calculations. If it is so difficult to obtain basic data for a boat in the market now, a new emperical number defining stability is not needed. I'll try to join info from other manufactures going the other way round (as Pacific Seacraft, i.e) and post it here.
After fiddling for maybe 50 to 100 times, you will get an efficient hull coefficients, ratios, dimensions and possibly prop specs.
Is asumed that values under 2 are desirable for ocean going boats, although there is a lot of controversy about the trustableness of this. A value similar to the breath of the boat in meters , even a little big bigger, is desirable. What is comfortable to you can be just boring and devoid of any sailing pleasure to a sportier cruising sailor, and I am not talking of racing, but in making an Atlantic crossing in 15 days instead of 23.
As I've stated before, boats may be not safer because of this, but in fact less, one of my concerns. I dare to say that more useful info than just knowing the STIX, if one knows what to look at. Very impressive too how much of them have Category CE A, and however score with a minimum limit of ISO STIX 12217. I assume you know Dan arena and Arneson were pals and the first Arneson was in an Arena Craft hull.
If T is too low, motion becomes uncomfortable, tiring and even risky (This is very important in fishing boats, where you need what is called a good 'platform stability', for the sake of the workers!).
You have helped me alot already, I feel a bit embarraced asking all these questions, but these are some of the things I would like to know and I have tried to find out but to no avail. I mean you can obviously have your own opinion in what regards a boat for your own use but I don't think you should generalize. We can get, just because of these two effects combined, an STIX of 42,3 which is already bigger then the 38 figure for the 44 MK II (It is still far away from the stated 57 value, you may say, and you'd be right, so that's why we must find where the differences are and why). If the buyer is reading new boat reviews, they have money, and reading graphs goes with the territory. T depends greatly on the beam of the ship, so the bigger the more uncomfortable movements, generally speaking (But you cannot make B as low as to threat stability! But far meaningless than STIX (regarding stability assessment) were what Guillermo calls ?Old Ratios?.
I believe he (the prof) is pushing you to further to isolate the wave making resistance and the frictional resistance. Oceanis 473 is a bulbeb keeler and her 'Old ratios' give a pretty good idea about the boat.



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