Originally Posted by solrac hi guys, I'm a kind of a newbie to al this concerning to design of a 30" sailboat.
Location: lithuania Nice job, although I didn't like the shape of the hull.
The best results I've got in modern sailboat hulls is to use 3 x 3 control point surfaces and changing the point weight to get the shape, LCB and prismatic coefficient right. Location: santo domingo, dominican republic Why two set of runners on each side?
Location: lithuania I would rewove one of the rear bunks with cocpit loker, it would make sailing a lot easyer, because, you always have a lot of struf on an ordinary cruiser.
If you still want to keep those racy sheeting angles you could put the tracks on the cabin top. I'll work on the steering mechanism (don't you think a wheel will reduce too much the cockpit space?) and the engine. Location: lithuania steering weel uses less space in the cocpit than tiller, you need a lot of space to turn it, and if you are sailing with friends free space would probably be hard to find , and mounting autopilot system (which might be very usefull for sailor like you) would be simplier to.
Originally Posted by tamkvaitis steering weel uses less space in the cocpit than tiller, you need a lot of space to turn it, and if you are sailing with friends free space would probably be hard to find , and mounting autopilot system (which might be very usefull for sailor like you) would be simplier to. When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Location: Rockford, IL Oh I don't know, the perfect boat for every use most certainly doesn't exist, but there are perfect boats for certain people for their particular uses. Location: Rockford, IL Btw, with that motorsailor, are you sure it's not a one off?
The Bluejacket 23 MS was built by Collingwood Yachts in, amazingly, Collingwood, Ontario in the mid 80's.
The Hart was a real sailing catboat, but that monster sail had 3 sets of reef points that needed use. At any rate, the "Family Cat" is a striking boat with all its curves and reverse transom---what a looker! I think 13 of the Family Cats were manufactured and then the tooling was sent to Collingwood Yachts where they converted it to a pilothouse motorsailer. I tried to find Collingwood Yachts on the net to find out how many Bluejackets were made but I had no luck---maybe they are out of business. Location: Canada Perfect is the ultimate insult it means you can do no better. Any who I believe Colingwood yachts is still in business but they may have been bought out or moved.
Originally Posted by OrionsSword Perfect is the ultimate insult it means you can do no better. I thought the NorSea 26 the perfect pocket MS until I saw Sean's images of the Bluewater 23 MS. It is not so small, but considering that it is designed as an oceangoing boat and that it is a reasonable fast boat, I find it quite amazing. Location: Croatia On a Wayfarer you can stand on the gunwhale and it won't tip over. I have to agree with Bistros - don't look at anything less than 14ft if you want enough space to take you both in comfort. Actually PDRacer was one of the first pages I researched, and thought it is more of a boat than a Kayak, so headed away to find Kayak designs!
Originally Posted by PAR but still only a child a mother could love in the chick magnet department, no matter how much bright mahogany trim you install. You will like these pics I got today (yes TODAY) from the philippines where a couple have been built. If I was an advertising type I might suggest that this was a common risk for all PDRacer owners. The Goat Island Skiff and the 14' Raid boat look like great candidates - big enough to comfortable fit two. Although you want a boat that basically can't capsize, you have to plan for the worst and assume it could happen. Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada Matoi, I will take great care to ensure the missus doesn't see THAT site until after she has enjoyed a relaxed, leisurely trip around a really small lake! Bistros: hauling the wet missus into anything afloat is definitely not in the plan, but I was thinking of having a boarding ladder so she could climb back over the transom, while I jeer from midships or perhaps something more appropriate.
Location: Eustis, FL They're not that young, you're just old enough to think they are. Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada Par, the RYD-8.4 looks very suited for my purpose, what does it weigh? As an aside, I notice that, on many Gunter rigs, the boom and gaff are similar in length, and I would assume in section too. Location: Eustis, FL Less then 100 pounds with full exterior 'glass sheathing and rig. I'd say there are quite a few candidates among the designs of Paul Fisher (Selway-Fisher) and Gavin Atkins.
Originally Posted by ancient kayaker Bistros: hauling the wet missus into anything afloat is definitely not in the plan, but I was thinking of having a boarding ladder so she could climb back over the transom, while I jeer from midships or perhaps something more appropriate. I've car topped boats single handed that others thought hard - without any strain or trouble. Right now my boat is hanging from the roof of my garage over the little car (so the van gets full height on the other side). The point of all this is to let you know that with a little thought and napkin engineering you aren't limited to a little tiny boat that you can bench press single handed. I have several boats hanging from various parts of my garage but there’s no way I could get a van in there!
Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada While somewhat stubborn, I can take advice.
I built a boat last year (pictured below) that was mostly based on 4mm for sides & decks - and having done so I would consider using the 6mm for the side decks that may be used for seating. I planned to arrange the controls so I can pilot from forrard to give her lots of leg room. Originally Posted by bistros The 4mm is quite flexible and we ended up putting knee braces every 12 inches or so to make it rigid enough. Originally Posted by ancient kayaker However, your notes on the value of size are well taken and I might stretch my own design to 12 ft since it has a little more beam, depends on how the exact weight comes out; that would give at least 50% more heeling resistance. Originally Posted by ancient kayaker What did you mean by "floor-level daggerboard trunk"? I'll probably be going through your neighborhood a couple times this summer - my parents live on Lake Huron near Tobermory and we usually try to spend some time in Georgian Bay on the water. Bill: the dry capsize technique I mean is often used in the PDR - using side tanks large enough to lift and drain the hull as it floats on its side with a bouyant mast. I have boat plans for a sailing canoe and Rushton's Wee Lassie, and several study plans for skiffs but I've only designed and built canoes so far. I have more than enough 4 mm marine ply on hand and an untouched sheet of 6 mm (just bought a small job lot) plus Baltic Birch ply which might be good for the transom, so I'm good to go once I clean out the garage!
Objectives remain as per the first post, but negative comments on the PDRacer were taken to heart especially after watching a video in which one pecked alarmingly as it took wind pressure from aft, almost pitch-poling and coming to a virtual stop.
The advice for bigger boat was also noted but took second place to my wish for car topper this time. Those who know me understand that getting me to build anything “as designed” is like trying to herd cats! Her first sail will be small, a Bermudan spritsail of my own design using Par’s sail plan.
Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada I did some building of Dace during June but July so far has been a wash due to a variety of things.
Here's some pics: sorry I haven't been following up earlier but this lot gets me caught up. Construction notes: the sheer planks are 4 mm marine ply, the developments are straight sided. The cutting table is topped with insulating foam which makes it very easy for cutting out with a hand-held circular saw.


Joints at or below the waterline are made with epoxy, including the stem, transom to sheer joints and bottom.
In the last pic the bulkhead can be seen, with a centerpost to support the daggerboard trunk.
The bottom and transom are fastened by roundhead steel screws while the epoxy sets: these will be exchanged for countersunk brass ones in the finished boat.
Originally Posted by ancient kayaker I did some building of Dace during June but July so far has been a wash due to a variety of things.
I'm building a boat for my son right now - the garage has been elevated from it's lowly duties of storing cars and off-season paraphernalia to the lofty role of boatshop. Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada A garage can be used for many purposes, the wost thing you can use it for is storing a car, especially in Ottawa. I know Lee Valley Tools well, we have a branch in Toronto - I thought I had died and gone to heaven! Your stringer on the cockpit floor, or chine log as some call them, is exactly what I do between the sheer planks and bottom, except I glue it to the sheers first instead of the bottom.
After this very simple flattie I would like to try something a bit more shapely, perhaps a 5-planker or even a round hull using my version of lapstrake mooted in the zipper-seam thread.
I designed a very deep, ballasted inside at high ratio, with a headroom at 4'6", two berth and a enclosed head. All that for a wife who wanted a private head, condition non negotiable, for her to came sailing. Originally Posted by ancient kayaker I enjoyed your bog; as you wrote we have a lot of things in common.
Originally Posted by ancient kayaker What are the dimensions for your boat's daggerboard? Originally Posted by ancient kayaker Your stringer on the cockpit floor, or chine log as some call them, is exactly what I do between the sheer planks and bottom, except I glue it to the sheers first instead of the bottom.
Some of you may have noticed that we like to visit various boat shows, and also frequently report about the ones that we have visited here in this blog.
It is needless to say, that sailboat design has evolved a lot just during the last twenty or thirty years. When looking some of the modern boats, one can see range of small improvements and innovations. I think that many sailors know the difficulty of getting the cockpit table or the companionway hatch board out of the full cockpit locker.
This will prevent the mainsail to open freely when running, and will add up to more work, which can be a burden when short handed.
From the line drawing of the sections it appears you have some major localised flat spots, hollows and maybe even creases.
The rig could lose the runners for your style of sailing, maybe a running backstay for mast bend and a baby stay to stop the mast from pumping.
This design uses stering system similar to stering with steering weel it is dificult to see, the ruder is in front of the tiller!
And if your better half still feels unsafe, you can install a steel centerplate making it even more stable. Is it practical, if becalmed, to drop the rig and use the boom and gaff as oars, with a clip-on blade?
So instead of the Puddle Duck I am going with a small skiff, about the same weight stripped for car-topping, but much better performance and probably similar stability - the same bottom width (4').
I ended up with a concept that looked very like PAR's neat little 10 footer, so I may just go with PAR's design if it suits my building methods as I haven’t done the structural analysis for my design yet. In my design I planned to use side tanks which doubled as torque tubes, large enough so she could be righted virtually dry following a capsize.
My canoes get a lot of compliments and interest when I take one out on the water; it isn't difficult, 20% attention to joints, 20% reasonable finish and 60% balanced proportions. She has a parasol, but I will forgo the wind-up gramophone and small guitar that were de rigeur back than! I was planning a small and simple rig, no vang, rudder controlled through a cord led around the gunnels and back through a bow block (a common trick in excursion yachts way back when) and sprit set nice and high for zero head-banging.
I generally launch from a sloping beach so I can part the flat, wide transom on the sand during the all-aboard, get yersef comfortable phase, maybe a little ladder over the transom that will serve for re-boarding during solo adventures, and then I can hop in over the bow which will bring the stern out of the mud. The side tanks will also make dandy seats with back support if I make the the inwale fairly deep.
My method is ideal for a light skiff hull, and I want to have input into the design but still don't know enough. I have to admit that progress has been severely delayed by health issues, mostly related to my old fart syndrome, but I expect to start building in about a week. First thing I did when Par’s design package arrived was analyze the lines, to see how much I could simplify the building process, being somewhat lazy.
I will have side tanks from transom to the foredeck, at sheer level, which will also function as seats and side decks, providing structural stiffness in what is going to be a light boat. I will make the sprit boom a double wishbone, similar to those used for sailing boards, but the sail will have 2 layers and the halves of the boom will separate, so I can open it out double-size rigger for downwind, conditions permitting: instant spinnaker! The straight-sided developments make cutting a snap, using an 8' guide customized to my saw. I cracked a chine log: the repair is visible but it is inside the bouyancy tank so it will not be seen.
I would like to start a blog but I need to find webspace: did your internet provider give you server space?
I use Titebond III only where I can assure a perfectly fitting joint, which is easy when the joint components are laying flat. I am going to try tarp, I have got some nice silver stuff and there is a source of white tarp on the net - they even supply finished sails. For my 5-plank canoes I also glue logs to the bottom edges, mount the bottom on the stems, and plane the bottom and sheer edges to accept the garboards or bilg planks. Since I want to built to the cheapest possible by not going wild in size, I opted for a non trailable super heavy very small boat. Some time ago we actually got a question, if we are looking for a new boat from the boat shows.
However, not all of the development is positive, since in my opinion, the design philosophy has changed too much towards the living comfort in the harbour, which is often achieved at the cost of seaworthiness and kindliness. Pure racers are out of the scope of this blog post, since their design philosophy is often so different. Indeed, one potential problem with beamy and flat bottomed boat with only one rudder, is the loss of control, when the rudder raises out of the water at higher heel angles.
In the Yacht Design Course, held in Turku last November, a study was presented, where the T-keel showed no significant improvement on the computer modelled performance of the boat compared to the normal fin keel with similar draft and center of gravity.
As this exercise needs to be repeated often many times during the day, many manufacturers have addressed this issue by adding fixed cockpit tables and foldable or drop-down companionway doors.
Having sailed mostly with boats that do not have one, I can certainly appreciate the rationale behind the platform. As I said in the beginning, the modern sailboat design has improved many things, but not all of this development is positive in my opinion. I have seen prety nice removable and rotating stering weel systems, so it can be removed or rotated, to minimize place required.
I don't know much about the Raider, it seems a hair heavier but less beamy, perhaps that is due to the self-bailing feature. These guys are throwing so much good stuff at me that I will have to go through a major exercise just making up my mind which boat to build. DragonFly is 16', fractionally rigged Bermudian and fast, though fairly stable as far as performance dinghies go.
However, I mostly load my plastic kayaks from the side, due to the shape of the roof-rack on the current van.
However, I can have a box on the ground to rest the transom on so it slopes at a more gentle angle, leaving more weight on the roof-rack.
As you noted, a raised floor cockpit reduces internal height and is less comfortable in a small boat.
However I need to know more about mast step and centerboard trunk construction before proceeding so I will probably acquire one or two more detailed plans.


The mast steps are all in the foredeck which is a compromise between two of Par’s accommodation layouts. I wasn't a boater back then, but I concluded that cars last longer when they are left outside.
I think if my boat were intended to stay in the water I would change to epoxy, and would certainly consider a saturation coat.
However, the idea of this blog post is not to argue whether a modern or traditional boat is better than the other. However, this study had some limitations, so this is not probably the only truth out there, but at least, I am not convinced of the idea of having a fishnet or buoy chain catcher in the cruising boat for the sake of marginal benefit in the speed. Let's take the example of a common problem: when sailing the cockpit easily turns into a messy snake's nest, if one is not pedant with the halyards and sheets. Another thing that has changed is the design of the companionway (or the main entrance to the cabin).
For example, boarding or de-boarding the dinghy is inconvenient and even risky from the swimming ladders, especially if there is swell.
However, I understand that one should spend a lot of time on the water sailing different boats in order to get a picture on, how different design features work in the practice. And I would try to move the engine as far aft as posible (I like dashev concept) It would make a lot of space inside.
I managed to capsize my W before I learnt how to gybe properly, and my girlfriend did become less enthusiastic about sailing in a dinghy. They are both light, obviously easy to build, probably easy to cartop, and they'll certainly have the legs of the PDR. Sounds like the sort of feature a cheap ready made boat might have, and reduces the on-board clutter.
I will have 2 rigs, about 40 sq ft for learning and taking out the Missus, if I can thaw her feet out, difficult to capsize with that small a sail but bouyancy tanks and re-boarding provisions just in case. I find if I allow the material to take a natural shape it’s impossible to build ugly. A boat where you are more or less forced to step in well out from the centreline feels a lot less stable than when were the layout enopcurages your first contact to be on the centreline.
Clearing the rubbish in the workshop that accumulated from a bathroom renovation is under way.
She got her bottom on yesterday and is feeling a lot better now she is decently covered up! I had a fire in my garage a couple of years ago and during the repairs it was brought up to current code. I don't use a lot of Titebond III, my current tube is on its third boat - it goes a long way in zero-gap joints. Both design philosophies clearly have their pros and cons, so the question depends on personal valuation and needs. She is designed by the famous Volvo Ocean Race designer Juan Kouyoumdjian, and there are some obvious similarities to modern VO70 boats. Furthermore, the mainsheet traveler in the cockpit is often in the way and can be a safety risk for the crew. Previously, many offshore boats had bridge decks in front of cockpit to prevent water leaking into the living quarters, in case the cockpit is flooded.
Therefore, bathing platform will be included in the wish list, when looking for the next boat. In this sense traditional features are well tested, whereas some of the newest trends and innovations may suffer from childhood problems. Actualy you should look more on th dashev boats, thay look (I have not sailed any) great sailing boats, with huge amount of comfort.
With an open transom like this it is much easier to access the boat trough the transom from a dinghy or pontoon than with a wheel. Lightly loaded and hiking out, you can get some performance out of her, but she's really just a tender, but a stable and easy to build one.
Also it would be a good idea to add a temporary transom to my 10 ft canoe, weight it to 60 lb or so, then try loading it on the van to ensure I will be able to car-top the new boat. Materials are 90% on hand; just need some clean pine, a little mahogany trim and a piece of spruce for the mast.
At the same time I crossed some palms with silver and had the doors, insulation and wiring improved. She is, in my opinion, capable of taking us anywhere that we could imagine, but let's face it: a 29-footer is a rather small boat for longer cruises, so most probably she is not going to be our last boat either. What I would like to discuss, are some of the observations that I have made at the boat shows for example, and compare those to my own experiences of owning two, more or less traditional sailboats during the last six years.
Perhaps the most visible examples of those are the hull chines, twin rudders and the T-keel. In my opinion, the second rudder is much more useful addition, than nowadays more popular twin wheels but only one rudder concept. In modern cruising boats, the trend in the recent years has been to make the cockpit (or a part of it) line-free, which is achieved by shifting the mainsheet traveler fore or aft of the cockpit and leading the halyard and reef lines to the aft part of the cockpit. If you transpose the outline of the cabin on to the layout plan you will see that above most of your seating areas you have little or no headroom and no shoulder room or full headroom in what I think is the head. My boats usually end up lighter than average, I know where I can skim off the odd pound or two. A boat with a transom would be far easier to load as it would stay put while I lean it against the van.
And if you have a snugly fitting daggerboard so water ingress is minimal I guess the case might not have to be above the waterline when the boat is swamped. It's now a nice workshop, but if I open the overhead door it quickly gets infested with local kids who are fascinated by the boatbuilding process.
However, the timing is not right for selling at the moment, because of the low market situation and the investments that we are making this year. In general, a longer keel spreads the loads over a larger area, whereas short keel with a large bulb at tip of the keel puts enormous forces to the area where the keel meets the hull. For example, older Swans had often two small cockpits, and a bridge deck for safety reasons. Thus, visiting boat shows and reading various articles from boating magazines is merely a hobby, since I like to keep up with what's new in the boating world.
However, for pure racing boats, where zero point one knots gain in the speed is a big thing, the T-keel is probably an optimal choice.
Furthermore, some boats with this concept do not have any boarding ladders available, when the platform is raised. I'm thinking that a 15 ft boat is going to need 2 to cartop, whereas I can easily manage the PDR on my own.
I've been working on a new 15' boat that's cool looking and if you can hold her down, very fast. On the other hand, many modern boats are equipped with open cockpits, which drain much quicker, so the cockpits can be larger, which is a nice thing in the harbour, but probably not as safe at sea though.
We have a fairly good one, and yet it is difficult to say fetch pizza from the fridge without letting go of both hands. My son has no interest in boats at all, on the other hand, my daughter can be talked into anything!
Fortunately, the conditions were not too bad, when your roller reefer (I presume that it was a fore sail?) jammed. But the situation, you describe, is a good example of, why I don't like the idea of having a furling main sail. I guess that the points you made regarding the open cockpits are pretty much the reasons, why lower-able bathing platforms are so common nowadays.
So in this respect, they are handy, and I can see why they are getting more and more popular.



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