Originally Posted by LyndonJ I'd stick to conventional methods, you'l have an asset then that you can relise when you sell. On a steel boat, where you build in your details and weld them down, which would have cost exponentially more in a non metal boat, the finished steel work is thus a far greater portion of the finished boat, than it is for non metal boats. As I point out in my book, people often fail to differentiate between resale value and resale price.
The fact that McNaughton is too dense to comprehend basic geometric principles has nothing to do with structural reality.
The picture above is of wooden planking ,which has no strength across the planks , which is exactly what frames were developed for. There is nothing floppy about a finished origami hull.Such comments reveal an absolute naivety about the subject. As for the cost beatup, you were asked before just how much it would really cost on another thread (in time and dollars) to add 5 or 6 transverse bar frames to a 36 foot steel boat. Nobody said that origami hulls are floppier, they are just weaker becasue the framing is floppier than a conventional frame. But you need to accept that some of your reasoning doesn't scale well to larger boats with much higher loads. Location: British Columbia Points 1 and 2 apply equally to longitudinals, as they are equally supported by their being welded to the hull plate, with the added structural advantage of going around a curve, yet you insist on calculating them as stand alone, with no attachment to, or support from, the hull plate.
It doesn't cost much to put 6 transverse frames in a hull, once it has been pulled together using origami methods, altho I know one guy who turned a couple of frames into a several week project, to increase his total income for the job.The point I am making is, if you put the frames up first, then try put the plate on to fit the frames, the cost and time goes up exponentially. Originally Posted by Brent Swain Points 1 and 2 apply equally to longitudinals, as they are equally supported by their being welded to the hull plate, with the added structural advantage of going around a curve, yet you insist on calculating them as stand alone, with no attachment to, or support from, the hull plate.
The relevance of frames is quite necessary to make the whole ship an almost corrugate systeme, with all the strength in all the direction. Now when the round plate is transformed in chine on your design, you have an intense stress point there, and that is no good practice. As for your other boat, they all are ceiled in wood inside and seams to cost much more that a Swan. Fisherman and commercial are tough with the money, every cent is acconted, but you don't know that.
By the way I would like to mention, a vessel of a certain size is never ever designed by one person, same for building. We may argue about his biased opinions, about his terribly obvious lack of understanding some basic engineering, but we cannot argue that he does it to harm or insult other members.
I know there are visitors here which cannot really get it together, where is the knowledge and where the anecdote.
Reverse clipper bows and wine glass cross sections would be difficult but practically any other single and multi chine hull form can be done in origami. It's clear that the longitudinals go into tension, suffer stress reversals and consequently deflect more that a pre bent frame. Originally Posted by whoosh … do these boats come with lines, as iines if one wanted to draw a body plan, for tankage floors frames etc?
That can be done by the software, or you can build chine model and take the strakes patterns from it.. Originally Posted by dskira When I designed and latter on built (sorry, I built too, but that is not relevant since you want to be the only one here) if we don't put frames the vessel will have been not able to do its work properly due to wickness, let alone having the cargo capacity strength needed to pay for itself and being safe. Daniel As I only build one hull a year, a couple of weeks work, and on every on I work with the owner, who's lifelong dreams are coming true , quickly before his eyes, it never gets boring.
The end of the chine where the cone begins is solid plate once the chine ends, not weld, so one is not dependent on the weld for strength.
Where Paul's mast goes thru the deck, a large doubler of heavier plate, plus some flat bars on edge eliminates the chances of anything wobbling .
The only compression on the mast is only the weight of the mast, rigging and sails on a junk rig , unlike the tremendous compression on a marconi rig. Colvin estimates 1,000 hours for a hull and deck, something origami lets you do put together in under 100 hours.
All those laps would also present alot of corrosion possibilities, exterior & especially interior. Location: Australia The overlap method was common for a decade or so after the move from riveting joins to welding.
Either alternate under over plating, or lapstrake or jogged seam where the overlap is heated with a torch and hammered over the lower plate till it fits snug . In all types both the inner and the outer plate edge are then fully welded to the plate below. The boatyard saves a lot of time in fitting since you can have a large tolerance on the edges.
By the time Beisterveld had almost finished the construction, we had designed and ordered all our stainless steel grab rails, bolders (Dutch for cleats!), stanchions etc from TBS. She was put into a warm, dry shed and over the next few months went through a metamorphosis, changing shades as the team of painters blasted, primed, faired and prepared her for the finish coats of Flag Blue and White, using an Awl Grip paint system.

As we were still working in Florida, we made the huge decision to ship the finished hull across to the USA to build the interior and to rig her. Having contracted them to do the fine work that required skill and experience we took on the 'grunge'work. Having designed the whole interior ourselves, we worked out the positions of seats, bunks, cupboards etc and helped make the patterns from which the teak veneered marine plywood was cut.
Once fitted by the carpenters, we screwed, glued and epoxied it all together, often working long into the night to be ready for the next day. We also painted all the lockers as we went along and coated every piece of marine ply with epoxy to protect it from moisture.
Once the woodwork was done we spent months varnishing before finally tackling the wiring, plumbing and electronics installations – amazingly enough it all seems to work! Last but not least came the 55' mast, custom built by JSI in Florida and rigged by Andy Wall in Ft. With six new Dacron sails from Hood we were ready to test Wandering Albatross and she was everything we had dreamed of – powerful, fast and easy to handle. We were ready to go at last and set out in December 2005 for a shake–down through the Caribbean and across the Atlantic to Scotland. Location: Edmonton,Alberta Hello,would be unreasonable to ask do None Destructive Testing on welds in several strategic places on the vessel as part of the survey. It's all highly distorted marketing spin from some loosely associated real event as told by Brent Swain. Use the example of the peanut, that should suffice and compare the size of the impact dents. You should also have understood that from the discussion about the stringers in the Transverse frame thread. Restrain the ends with the strip pulled out straight and it takes a huge center load with no deflection. That's one concept that you have been refusing to grasp, that ultimate tensile strength and shape stability under load is not governed by shape stiffness but by total global strength. No one said shape doesn't add stiffness, but don't confuse stiffness with strength on purpose as a debating tactic to score points. I don't think you understand how Brent operates, he's on a limb of his own making and he's slowly but surely cutting his way through it.
I'm shocked ( and there is no other description of how I feel) at his level of incompetence and I'm not alone as others here have made it clear.
What we could do is start another thread on how to improve his designs although anyone who can follow ISO or GL class rules can do that on their own.
Would anybody whom knows anything about welding, buy a boat project that was fabricated to this level of "quality"? And for the record Mike tried to point this out to me knowing I would have had a different outlook on the situation if I had seen what he did but I thought how bad can it be, it's in the promotional DVD for everone to see! Originally Posted by spiritbaer Hello,would be unreasonable to ask do None Destructive Testing on welds in several strategic places on the vessel as part of the survey.
In our yards the QA procedure has been that the welder is to dye-pen test the root of all butts and seams before final capping by the welder. Once you get into the habit it doesn't take much time nor that costly for cans of dye and fixing agents. What I said was, given that you can buy a Brent boat in the water and ready to sail for less than \$40K (there was one for sale at the time in Fiji IIRC), you'd have to value an unfinished hull by adding to its asking price the cost of all the bits that it didn't have, then making an allowance for the labour needed to get it to a sailing condition. By the time that you did this exercise, the value of an unfinished hull may well be only the scrap value of the steel in it.
I didn't make any comments about build quality or anything else, just the cost of finishing it at the asking price made it a pretty dubious proposition if all you wanted was to get sailing both quickly and cheaply - which after all is Brent's mantra. I must also added that plenty of transverse support in the way of floors, keel support etc goes into the bare hull.
The hull of any steel boat is the easy part that goes fast - it is the interior that takes time, regardless of building method used. I had also built a Dix 38 I commissioned frameless (radius chine) as well as a Tom Thumb 24 frameless.
The snaps below shows the Stadt being build outside in the yard, no cranes and was build by one guy and two helpers. The complete Stadt 34 bare hull and deck with main bulkheads, tanks, shotblasted and epoxy prime painted complete with rudder fitted, cost my client US\$8831 (eight, eight, three, one) ZAR66233 at the time (1991) with current exchange rate applied.
A former colleague of mine, Mike Tsumori, used to laugh when someone, like myself, would suggest that we could build as quickly and as well in Canada. Originally Posted by LyndonJ On an existing painted structure you can only xray or visually inspect. I've seen a lot of backyard boats built my many owners of varying skills , but have yet to hear of any weld on any small boat ever failing at sea. Not surprising ,as boats held together by a copper fastening every 6 inches in red cedar have been crossing oceans for centuries. I like to let the owners often people , who have never welded in their lives before , weld on the lugs used to pull the hull together themselves, both sides.
Welders like to put themselves on a pedestal, by making welding seem a lot more difficult and tricky than it really is. Originally Posted by larry larisky you mean st pierre and miquelon of course No, the country I was thinking of doesn't have a name of it's own ,so just uses the name of one of the continents. Fast construction methods seem a taboo here, which is why most here will never keep up with innovators.Lluddites condemn fast construction methods.
Alberg 37's 35's Fraser 41's , Rawson 30's and the Sparkman and Stephens design I have been sailing on lately, have no floors.
Origami building gets the same end result, in a fraction the time, with a fraction the amount of seam cutting grinding and welding and a fraction the amount of chine.
That is currently less than the cost of the bare steel for a boat that size not counting the cost of epoxy, sandblasting etc.
So make up such a frame for a 40 footer, and I can bend it by hand, by simply putting one end against the wall and pushing on it. By itself, it is as floppy as hell, but once it is tacked down, with a 7 inch camber, with no structural members under it, six guys can stand and jump on it, without it buckling or deforming in any visible way. It will first twist the plating, second will wooble the deck, and third the mast will go thru the hull. I thought you knew that, but evidently you don't, since your very mean attack on my resume prove it. There, a dumb welder with insufficient and outlasted licenses can blame a well established boatbuilder of being a novice. Their excitement , and enthusiasm in seeing a hull take shape in a few hours from flat plate, is contagious. But other than possibly ice-work, I think a proper steel boats much more than adequate strength wise. The same would go for a repair where someone welded plate over a bad section instead of properly cutting the section out and insetting a new piece, a matter of fact, plate over plate would be much worse I would think. We had a yard bulding a boat here that was offering a discount to plate this way but local DNV were not happy. We chose to build in steel for its strength, versatility and ease of repair and Holland, famous for the quality of its steel boats, was the obvious choice for the hull construction.
It also meant we could be there for important and exciting moments – not as easy as it sounds as we were working in Florida at the time, flying back to Holland every 4 – 6 weeks to check on progress!
We incorporated extra plate thickness below the waterline (5mm instead of 4mm) for additional strength, a watertight bulkhead quarter of the way back from the bow, a dedicated life raft locker in the cockpit and a doghouse for protection in bad conditions.

One cold September day the team descended upon us like a swarm of worker bees and welded everything onto the deck – she was starting to look like a real boat! At last this phase of the build was over and it was time to move the hull to the painters shed. Lauderdale aboard the Dock Express in March 2003 and we wasted no time in getting to work on laying the cabin sole (floor) and putting in the bulkheads and ship–side cleating. We worked with Lighthouse Shipwrights for much of this time, a great group of guys who not only made the project a success but were a lot of fun to work with. Ramming it at 5 knots had no effect on the steel ,and surprisingly ,had little effect on the epoxy ,except the leading edges of the keels and the stem. I guess 45 ft would fall into the category of which Brent tells us is within the realm of origami, and others say it isn't. What you see now is the continuation of years of attempts at the approach you are recommending, it's been tried. Having all below-waterline welds tested would not be cheap, you'd have to measure linear footage to get a decent quote. Like I said, you & others couldn't have known without me posting my video of the boat and I didn't want to do that.
If I drop dead before it's finished, my family have instructions to sell it at auction with no reserve. As mentioned before, myself and two helpers built such a 34 ft hull and deck complete with rudder fitted ready for shot blasting in 18 days. They are also very light for a steel boat and if memory serves me right, it displaces only around 5.5 tons loaded. I also remember beautiful construction photos of one of the Dix boats you've built, round or radiused bilge, which has actually brought me to appreciate building upside-down.
One found a guy with his own portable, who would weld , provining all his own materials for \$15 an hour. Then after the pulling is done I give them a sledgehammer and let them try to break it off. The lake didn't even freeze, but the fresh water running down the shallow creek got a chance to cool enough to freeze when it hit the lagoon, as it floated on top of the salt water. The longer and wider the keel, and the more rocker in the hull along the keels length , the less support needed.
All the big stuff was in, and I did the rest as materials arrived, in quiet peaceful anchorages, treating it like a hobby rather than a necessity with deadlines. They'd look even better if you eliminated all those chines in the ends and made the ends polyconic, like origamiboats.
You can take a photo of any boat from an angle which doesn't look al that great especially any boats with a more traditional sheer, taken from the quarter. Resale value is the difference between what you can get for a boat and what she cost you in the first place. The attached framing limits damage and provides safe stress paths which is not only a strength and stiffness issue but also a fatigue issue. Since your method of framing is floppier for being pre-stressed then the hull structure will buckle more easily.
It does develop soft spots once the longitudinal welds are done , which is why I force flat bar beams up under it, on 18 centres , along the direction of the curve, like longitudinals , not fore and aft, across the curve , like transverse frames. The deck is weakest point, the design need more attention since some renforcement can be detrimental localizing the stress inset of diffusing it. She is 13m LOA, draws 2.25m, has a deep fin keel containing 5 tonnes of lead ballast, a skeg hung rudder and a beautiful, sleek profile. This basic interior 'framework' had to be in place before we sprayed 2–3 inches of high density insulation foam over every bare surface. Then tap the foil right next to a hard point, the edge of the cup ( frame) It dents far more easily with a hard point to stretch against. Surprisingly ,the half inch nylon three starnd anchor rode was unnaffected by the ice, except it was a lot cleaner where it went thru the ice. The foil dome adds stiffness to the foil sure, but it's much stiffer and resistant to denting when it's restrained as a diaphragm. You've always tried to drive discussions into this miasma, attack the messenger and distort the message rather than actually discussing something properly. I would be happy to draw a basic hull of that size, and I guess we should give Brent the opportunity to replace it with his own drawing.
But people who don't know better fall for it, then having taken the hook they are in the religion. He's only interested in being faultless and he can only do that by using these tactics of BS swamp warfare.
There has been mention of Dutch designers & builders and other Europeans whom have used this method of construction, etc.
On steel, sections of a seam are usually tested, not the entire length, though what we are talking about, here, isn't usual. At the time, I was trying to be polite, or I would have suggested that it was worth what it would cost for someone to remove it. I was hoping the ability of the water to warm much further than the lake would make the lagoon warm , but the creek stopped due to the drought. Still, I'd recommend it on any steel hull of unknown build quality, as it is like insurance against the greater cost of a boat purchase that goes bad. I got offered a deceased estate hull for free provided I took it away, but it was still too expensive. I am on record however, stating that origami can be build safely if it is well engineered - meaning proper scantling rules and calculations are applied.
He is now sailing and living aboard for under 30,000, something he would never accomplish following your advice. If you believe hard chines look better than radiused chines, then why would you go to all the trouble of radiusiug chines.
It's not how much material you put in a structure that makes it effective, it's where you put the material.
Highest strake stays in one piece, lower strakes are cut in the middle and ends of the plates are connected. My current boat, with about three inches of outside curve , goes thru a head sea far more smoothly, with far less resistance.The buildup of buoyancy is far less sudden.
Think about this, now we have stiffness , compressive strength tensile strength and buckling.
The deck is weakest point, the design need more attention since some renforcement can be detrimental localizing the stress inset of difusing it.
There aren't many marine surveyors who have the knowledge, equipment, & do this kind of work. So you can get a reduced puncture resistance if you want, but I'd still put the required framing in. It is where you put the material ,and for puncture resistance, it's best put in plate thickness. The only rust I could find was was in the butt welded deck plate where one side door has been leaking for some time.

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