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Author: admin | 02.08.2015 | Category: Homeopathic Treatment For Tinnitus

This notion of history stuck with me through my years as an atheist, during which I'd often refer to Christians as “Flat-Earthers.” I threw the term around in online discussion forums, and ironically some non-Christians have since used it in reference to me.
The whole question of whether the Church taught a flat-earth flared up again recently when I spotted a popular Internet meme (pictured above).
The quote can be traced back to an essay titled Individuality by the famous American political leader and defender of agnosticism, Robert G. In all fairness to President Obama, conservative television personality Glen Beck repeated the same historical blunder on his show just a year earlier. The idea that Columbus sailed to the “New World” against the wisdom of his day is a complete myth, if a very persistent one.
There are only a handful of early Christian writers (mostly from the areas near Syria) that historians can point to as examples as those believing in a flat earth, but certainly this belief was never a test of Christian orthodoxy, and definitely not a doctrine of the Church at large.
Jon Sorensen is the Director of Marketing for Catholic Answers, the largest lay-run apostolate of Catholic apologetics and evangelization in the United States. The data you had at the time pointed towards the Earth being the center of the solar system. But maybe they cannot say that, because they don't have the authority to rule on scientific issues? And at the time (and still today), the Church tries to endorse natural theology, in which the views of the natural world and Scripture cannot contradict; if they do, either the scientific theory has flaws, or the scriptural interpretation does.
The real problem with Galileo is that both the Aristotelian writings and the standard of interpretation of Scripture were pointing to geocentrism.
I agree that they have no grounds to rule scientific issues, but you can't say that they were blind-folded to their own views, as they accepted the theories of both Copernicus and Galileo fairly. Do you think that the statement from Galileo's condemnation: "The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture." is right or wrong?
I don't really know what were the theological basis in which they were stating those things, up to the point of asserting heliocentrism is a heresy.
On the second statement, I, again, need to see the theological basis they were asserting this things.
I think the point is that the Bible, the Church, the popes, are supposed to be the ones with the best access to the creator of the Universe. A Bible and church truly inspired by the creator should be full of ideas that were radical at the time, but would later be show accurate. Sure score one for the church for not telling us the earth was flat centuries after a non-christian calculated the circumference of the globe. Galileo didn't "decide to become a trouble-maker", he just decided to advance an idea he thought was correct, which it turned out he was.
So, yeah, the Church outlawed heliocentrism for religious reasons and Galileo was innocent of anything except not kowtowing to authoritarians.
That's not true, that perspective came from many churcmen that were scientists during the Middle Ages, such as Roger Bacon and Albertus Magnus.
And it turns out that the Church was correct in saying that the sun was not the center of the universe. I didn't say Copernicus was the first person to ever consider an idea like heliocentrism, he brought a 'modern' version to light in Europe. I don't know anyone in history who is '100% correct', but later advancements beyond Galileo's theory don't make the Church correct.
You brought more detailed information on points I disagreed with you, and there seemed to be points in which either I misunderstood what you said or vice-versa (I pointed out the dialogue as a bit of a pinnacle point of this "touble-making" I was asserting, but was not directly saying Galileo had been out of trouble before so, nor was I intending to do so), and we were actually in common ground. But this was one of the reasons why they were not accepting the geocentric system in the first place. The teaching as fact of a theory is something that is completley reprimendable, up until the days of today. To top it off, I don't agree with the condemnation of Galileo's works (even though a house arrest in a palace of the de Medici family doesn't sound that bad, if we want to be fair!). The problem was that geocentrism was both obvious and supported by all available empirical evidence. Galileo was not only asserting geomobility, but was doing so against the best available scientific evidence. The Church meanwhile was under fire from Protestant fundamentalists who harped on naively literal reading protocols, and was feeling a might defensive about it all. Bellarmine told Foscarini (and Galileo) that there was no objection to changing the reading protocol in the light of new facts -- since the matter did not touch on faith and morals, but only on how a passage was read. The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith. Furthermore, that the Sun is the "center" (technically, it is not) of our solar system is at least understandable and consistent with astrological observations available at the time. That's a little bit wronger than Galileo assuming that ours is the only system because he couldn't discriminate between objects with undetectably different distances. The idea of erroneousity of any celestial body other than the earth being the center of the world was due to the combination of a wrong estimation of the size of the universe (given that it was believed to be static and not expnading), and, again, the lack of a stellar parallax in the other stars (which can only be seen in highly-optimized telescopes, but hardly, as they're prety far away; far more than they estimated to be), which combined with the first preposition, made it absurd that we would be rotating to any other celestial body.
The Church did not say that the sun was not the center of "the universe," but of "the world," since there was at the time no concept of other systems or galaxies outside our own.
I'm sure that your opinion of that statement is that it has some truth value, but that is independent of the fact that it has none. I'll admit that the philosophical and cosmological frameworks of pre-Gallilean societies don't seem to have been particularly conducive to the geo-to-helio centered paradigm shift, but you are wrong. The only difference the retrograde motion did was to call the planets "wandering stars" instead of just stars (that's what "planet" means, by the way).
In fact, it's the first thing mentioned in the section on the early development of heliocentric theories. You can side-step to Aristotle-love, or the future revelations of Newton, and the Wittgenstein quote, but the fact remains that you are wrong. In closing, I wonder if you could tackle Wittgenstein's question: what would the universe have to look like in order for it to appear as if the Earth went around the Sun? The picture painted here by the historians and letters between the various men of science in that time is quite different from the popular misconception. Maybe the Galileo affair had little to do with the Bible or science and was more about conflicting personalities. Historians of science have been proving this point for at least 70 years (most recently Edward Grant, David Lindberg, Daniel Woodward, and Robert S. Might I point out that likely the person most responsible for disabusing us of this myth is hero of atheists and skeptics Carl Sagan in episode one of Cosmos? Yes, Eratosthenes discovered the round nature of the Earth and the church did not get it wrong. I would have been impressed if this text, inspired by the creator of the Cosmos, had written, ", the devil took him out beyond into the heavens and circled the globe and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor, near, far and across the seas, yet undiscovered." Still lots of mystery there and this would likely have inspired more people to cross the seas and find these undiscovered countries. I think it's unlikely for one to have the capability to learn to read and write Greek in the first century AD and not have enough knowledge to know the generally accepted idea that the earth was round. We need to keep in mind as well, that as far as it is known, Matthew was one of the original converts from Judaism (he might even be the tax collector that shared his name, and was chosen to become an Apostle; I could show you the verse, but I didn't find it), and this Gospel was to show the divinity of Jesus to a Jewish crowd (in the same way that, for instance, Luke was directed towards a Gentile crowd). Residents of Villaricos were baffled last week, when a strange-looking sea creature washed ashore a beach in the southern coastal town Thursday. After a beachgoer reported the unusual find, authorities pulled the remains of the estimated 13-foot creature further onto the beach and cordoned off the area. Maria Sanchez, the civil protection coordinator for nearby Cuevas del Almanzora, speculated that mysterious marine animal may have washed in from somewhere near Africa. On Monday, the Association in Defense of Marine Fauna announced that experts are trying to identify the creature but have yet to present any concrete data, daily newspaper Ideal reports.


Gary Griggs, the director of the University of California Santa Cruz's Institute of Marine Sciences, offered his own explanation for the bizarre find. Oarfish are rarely seen alive since they reside far below the surface in temperate and tropical waters.
This image from television provided by Metro Fire Sacramento shows a horse stuck in an outdoor bathtub prior to being rescued by firefighters Wednesday Feb. Motif of the light or energy beam comming out from the top of a pyramid is repeated himself as a phenomenon or an artistic, symbolic production in places and or different situations. The motif is repeated in science, architecture and entertainment. A team of physicists detected an energy beam coming through the top of the Bosnian Pyramid of the Sun. Further electromagnetic detection in 2011 confirmed that levels of negative radiation through the Hartman, Curry and Schneider grids are equal to zero in the tunnels. In this view, it was not until Christopher Columbus’ historic journey to the “New World” that the Church became forced to accept this as fact and do away with its false belief. Some of these folks were around when Columbus set sail—they must have been founding members of the Flat-Earth Society. Beck managed to one-up the President in the myth department by inserting Galileo into the story. Greek astronomers were aware almost 300 years before the time of Christ that the Earth was round. It was simply the opinion of a small minority—medieval and later Christians did not believe or teach this. The earliest source I've been able to pinpoint is Washington Irving (author of The Legend of Sleepy Hollow) in his four-volume series titled A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus.
He earned his bachelor’s degree in 3D Animation and Visual Communications in 2004 from Platt College, Ontario. Instead, the Church supported Ptolemy's error, placing the Earth at the center of the solar system. When you say " the Church supported Ptolemy's error," do you mean the Church officially taught this scientific view or that some Catholic leaders wrongly accepted it? It appears to me, after having talked with Sungenis, that the Catholic Church at one time officially taught that the Earth was the center of the Solar System. What happened was that the geocentric idea appeared to be supported in some verses of the Bible when they're interpreted in a certain manner. It had the argument around the stellar parallax and others (some of which Galileo managed to refute), but Galileo had the obligation of making his theory more plausible in order for it to be accepted, as Cardinal Bellarmine said. The Church still holds that heliocentrism is absurd, and still condemns the view that stating it as fact is condemnable.
However, if you want my answer from the current theological basis which I defend, the answer is "it's wrong". In my opinion, something in their interpretation seem to have gone pretty damn wrong in order to achieve this type of assertion. Instead of getting hints about the actual cosmology that would be later revealed by humans, early church writings reflect a cosmological view that is just as ignorant as every other culture. We would expect it to talk about a Universe so vast and us being a tiny growth on a tiny dot. Subtract several million for telling us that we shouldn't eat pork but failing to mention that that mold growing on bread kills infection and can save hundreds of thousands of lives. The Church didn't have to specify that they were officially geocentrist until a competing idea became current.
I don't see how anyone could argue that the Church didn't teach geocentrism when it pronounced Galileo suspect of heresy and put his books and Copernicus's and others' on the Index Librum Prohibitorum. Aristotle studied the idea way back when (until he concluded that geocentrism was more accurate) and Nicholas of Cusa had this idea as well.
I already addressed that some passages were interpreted as if the Earth was static in the universe, and bible scholars were relunctant in accepting to re-interpret an exegesis for the sake of a flawed theory. There are understandable, though mistaken, arguments against that position but he was hardly 'blind'. Galileo held this outlook and it lead him to support the idea that heliocentrism was factual, contra the idea that it was only a mathematical abstraction or that it could be overridden by scripture. That the Biblical authors were geocentric isn't really in question, so it's not so much a matter of 'appeared to be supported when interpreted in a certain matter'.
They were wrong, they were wrong for stupid reasons, they acted unethically in punishing someone who was far more correct, but they would have acted unethically even if he had been completely wrong. With that in mind, I stand corrected and apologize for assuming the historical inaccuracy of what you've said. Cardinal Bellarmine said: "If there were real proof that the sun is in the center of the universe, that the earth is in the third heaven, and that the sun does not go round the earth but the earth round the sun, then we should have to proceed with great circunspection in explaining passages of Scripture which appear to teach the contrary, and rather admit that we did not understand them than declare an opinion to be false which is proved to be true. Things that aren't questioned due to having good backup (especially when that includes Scripture) carry a lot of inertia when there are attempts to debunk them, and there's no ground to say that this wasn't the case here. I don't feel, however, that we can completley judge the Inquisition until we bind ourselves to the time's mentality, which is a pretty hard thing to do. In fact, he received a memorandum from Bellarmine specifically stating that Galileo was not being corrected.
Heliocentrism was falsified not only by the lack of parallax, but also by the lack of Coriolis effects, the lack of a strong east wind, etc.
So I disagree, there were scientific grounds on the data that they had at the time to put to rest heliocentrism. The march of science will always be the process of replacing an incorrect, but previously accepted, 'fact' with one slightly less so. And also, keep a bit in mind that'd be a minor argument, given that they hadn't found the explanation for this retrograde motion, and nobody really seemed to conclude anything out of that motion.
Actually, I had seen this blog before (someone else linked to it in these comments a few days ago). A few -- at least two and at most five--early Christian fathers denied the spherically of earth by mistakenly taking passages such as Ps.
Literal or metaphorical, the intent seems to be that by being up high on a mountain one could see all of kingdoms of the world.
My interpretation is that it is a made up story for people who were generally clueless about Eratosthenes and did indeed think the Earth was flat. That passage (and the whole chapter of the context within that Gospel, for instance) has a metaphorical nature to it. He intended to emphasize the signs that Jesus was the Messiah that was predicted along Scripture, and some events in his Gospel can be downright bizarre to one that doesn't know the OT properly. According to ABC de Sevilla, the carcass exuded a strong odor and appeared to be in a state of decomposition. A remote undersea vehicle recently managed to capture footage of the long, bony fish swimming in the Gulf of Mexico, however most are not spotted until their carcasses wash ashore. Energy screening shows that the ionization level is 43 times higher than the average concentration outside which makes the underground chambers into “healing rooms”. He said the energy was undiminished by distance above the apex. Flanagan developed a pyramid grid to take advantage of this apex energy. The idea that Christians believed in a flat Earth has been taught in school textbooks, short films, and is believed by many even today. Before coming to Catholic Answers, he worked in the automotive industry producing television commercials and corporate video. On the other hand, I've talked with apologists who claim that even if the Church called this official teaching, it wouldn't be official teaching, because it is a scientific question and not a faith-and-morals question.
Galileo's idea to re-interpret Scripture was not supported until the flaws of his original theory were ironed out (as the fact of the the Sun being the center of the entire universe was seen as heretical due to being philosophically impossible, I'm not too sure why).


Proving Aristotle wrong was a sort of an exceptional thing to do, and it opened the doors for people to come up with better views of the world, making a bit of a basis of natural philosophy and, later, modern science. There would be no problem if Galileo kept it as a theory until he was able to bring down geocentrism definitively, and giving a good, grounded for the Church to re-interpret properly the Bible.
I need to see how they carried their interpretation of Scripture in order to reach that conclusion, but looking at it subjectively and without checking sources, it does seem that it wasn't one that was very well done. It's obvious that at this point, the Church stands corrected and apologized for this affair. What he also did, was to say blindly that it was above a theory and a fact, even though his theory had flaws that held a lot of sway.
And Copernicus published his book on the persuasion of the Church's cardinals, even though he was worried about being ridiculed by his contemporaries. And the political problems came mostly from the Thirty Years' War, not the Counter-Reformation. Galileo is obviously guilty of a stubborn attitude, even though there was a really good argument against his theory. The Dialogue was published in 1632, the Inquisition first convened on Galileo in 1616, I'd say that's 'trouble'. Nicholas of Cusa seems to have had a mystical view that only God was absolute so neither the Earth nor anything else could be absolutely fixed and perhaps there was no center. It's later readers who have had to reinterpret or ignore certain passages to maintain their idealized view of the book.
You can't say, however, that the Church would be as relunctant to the Copernican system (which the original form had various flaws, but we already discussed this) if the geocentric arguments that countered it were refuted by Galileo or whoever. Copernicus' work was placed on the Index "pending correction." This was because the reviewers had decided that there were passages that were "unclear" and could confuse the reader. And I might point out that at this time, what we call "science" was called natural philosophy. Besides, it was believed the planets and stars orbited at the exact same speed; they wouldn't have figured out this was caused by the occurrence of two different speeds until the Newtonian laws were discovered. If the pope or those in the Church given some authority over declaring on doctrinal disputes end up calling heliocentrism heresy, even for petty and personal reasons, those declarations become part of Church teaching, if only for the time. A round earth appears at least as early as the sixth century BC with Pythagoras, who was followed by Aristotle, Euclid, and Aristarchus, among others in observing that the earth was a sphere. I don't think either the writer nor any reasonable reader would guess that there was a mountain in the middle of the desert of the Levant that was able to see the entire world.
That verse in particular was an attempt from the Devil to seduce the human nature of Jesus to fall under temptation.
Ceramic sculptures are positioned over the underground water flows and the negative energy is transformed into positive.
There is a scene depicted in the book where shadowy Catholic clergymen warn Columbus that he might sail off the end of the Earth.
But the heliocentric idea seemed to have its support among the Jesuits and other scientists until Galileo decided to become a trouble-maker. The problem was that he shot himself in the foot by consistently teaching it as a fact and saying that the Church was patently wrong about this. I would need to check if these interpretations were a product of a bad reading of Scripture, or by basing as well in the Ptolemaic system, which led to wrong conclusions. Copernicus advanced heliocentric ideas which were published just before he died (1543) but few people seem to have paid attention. That's not authoritatiranism, that's simply pressing against a wall with a flawed view of the universe.
The point is that whether or not there were secular arguments at the time, the Church was taking a religious position and had no business threatening or banning Galileo's ideas. This was a personal idiosyncracy, not widespread and has little to do with heliocentrism or science. The Church didn't say, 'continue your research and we'll withhold judgment', they convicted him, banned his work and put him under house arrest. Bringing the thing as a theory will always dismiss condemnation or censorship, as it's no threat to the authorities the way that asserting something as fact is. To say it's false philosophically is to say it's scientifically incorrect, and conflicts with "the paper" can be resolved if the paper was proven to be wrong. Although there were a few dissenters--Leukippos and Demokritos for example--by the time of Eratosthenes (3 c.
On the other side tens of thousands of Christian theologians, poets, artists, and scientists took the spherical view throughout the early, medieval, and modern church. It is a bit of an useless attempt to try to break one of the Persons of the Trinity into corruption, but if he succeeded once, the crucifixion would be far from having the same effect on the salvation of men. This, of course, is not supported by any real historical data, but it nevertheless provides good fodder for Internet memes. Until then, I see no reference of the Church doing anything that merely resembles teaching officially geocentrism until this affair appeared.
That was the problem for it to be called "heresy", and the Inquisition had grounds to judge him, because he was a devout Catholic. It reflects the Greek view of crystal spheres, the firmament with water behind it in the sky. Copernicus was encouraged to publish by a few friends, but his work was presented as mathematical and theoretical to defend it from accusations of advocating literal truth. The authorities weren't scientists worried about stellar parallax, they were worried that the official view of the Bible was being challenged, as was the semi-official Ptolemaic-Aristotelian system that had been absorbed into Church doctrine.
This also shows Jesus's sinless nature, and that his integrity couldn't be broken by the biggest of temptations of men, showing that His nature wasn't entirely natural after all. It had some political implications, a not-so-sweet reaction from the Pope who opened the case and all that, but neither the Church, nor Galileo were completley innocent on this matter. It's also a matter of understanding what went wrong in their interpretation in order to give them a fair hearing on the subject, but I see no reason to assume that this is heretical.
Some tried to pass off heliocentric ideas as mere calculational tools but Galileo held to the perspective that said tools and observations actually reflected facts about the cosmos. I was using 'Counter-Reformation' in the broad sense of reaction to Protestantism and tightening of doctrine.
In this case, the devil was about to offer Jesus all the kingdoms of the world if He bowed and worshipped him. It seems that the pyramid-builders created a perpetual motion machine a long time ago and this “energy machine” is still working. But there's no ground for being any type of faith-and-morals question; a philosophical one at best. If I had some time machine to go to the time of Galileo and stated it as fact, I think I'd have enough empirical evidence and an orthodox biblical interpretation to refute any charge of heresy. The Church, in the spirit of the counter-Reformation, was cracking down on threats to its orthodoxy and declared Copernican ideas heresy, since they do conflict with the Bible (which was written by geocentrists who didn't know the earth was round).
Nonetheless, although he received some religious criticism, not many people payed attention to his cosmology.
Obviously the Thirty Years War falls under the same broad conflict, although the Office of the Inquisition seems more directly relevant.
I don't know about you, but I think anyone would be up to accept that amound of absolute power, it's pure human nature.



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