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Lucid was the first absinthe brand to be allowed back on American store shelves after a 95-year absence. Lucid dreaming has become immensely popular over the past few years, and for some good reasons! Sleep paralysis kicks in once Ia€™m relaxed enough – and the feeling of it usually forces me back awake.
The first thing I ALWAYS do as soon as I realize Ia€™m lucid is put my face right up to the ground! To successfully induce lucid dreaming takes practice, and the progression of surpassing our fears. 49 Please Share Share on Twitter Email Lucid dreaming expert Robert Waggoner explains how to become aware of our dreams while we’re dreaming, and how paranormal dreams can lead to a journey of self-discovery. Andrew Paquette: Can you give an example of something like that where you’ve been in a dream and you’ve asked for some kind of future information, you’ve been given it, and later on in a waking state you were able to verify this?
And during the lucid dream he was really excited and he started to memorize them as quickly as he could. When he woke up from the lucid dream he immediately reached for his dream journal and began writing them down as quickly as possible.
Andrew Paquette: Tonight we welcome Robert Waggoner, author of the book, Lucid Dreaming and a frequent speaker on the subject of lucid dreams. Robert Waggoner: Lucid dreaming is when you consciously realize in the dream that you are dreaming. Andrew Paquette: Okay, now one thing that happened—and I’m going to be kind of baring my soul here for the audience, kind of the way that I did when I met you—is that I had this negative impression of what lucid dreaming was and what books about lucid dreaming were about.
It always seemed to me that if you wanted to make yourself have a lucid dream or if you had them and you got all excited about it, you were just looking that this kind of dream or this aspect of a dream as a form of entertainment. Andrew Paquette: Okay, now you touched on something in your answer there that I want to ask you about. Robert Waggoner: I would definitely say that the inner self is different than what Freud considered the id. So I feel that invisible awareness behind the dream might be what Jung called the Self (with a capital s) or it might be what I’m calling here the “inner self.” It’s a part of us in the dreaming state that’s aware that it’s nonvisible and it’s behind the scenes.
Andrew Paquette: Okay, now when you’re in a lucid dream and you call out the dream, would you please explain what’s going on here? Andrew Paquette: The thing about this—I really would love to hear exactly what this looks like or feels like when you have this experience. The next day I was a little bit upset when I woke up, actually, that I had considered such a poor experiment because of course throughout the day I got a number of phone calls but the most important one and most excited one was the one I got from my wife who had just been placed as Chair of a university committee and she was excitedly telling me about it. Andrew Paquette: By the way, one thing I want to point out here, and I’d like to have a comment from you if possible for our listeners because I suspect some of them are going to be thinking, “Wait a minute. Andrew Paquette: I hate to harp on this, Robert, but I know how skeptical some people are and I want to push it a little further.
Robert Waggoner: So what I realized from talking to him is that if a lucid dreamer was ever going to do this, what they should do is pick a Lotto with a few numbers.
Just to make a long story short, what happened next was I saw like this wheel of fortune and the first number I saw was 8.
In any case, I did talk to one person who told me that he won the lottery by virtue of a lucid dream. Robert Waggoner: In the introduction they have a clock with the hands spinning wildly forward, so that was the dream trigger, the dream symbol that would make me realize that that dream was probably precognitive.
One thing I’ve realized is on the nights that I have the dream that a day or two later I realize was precognitive, I go back and look at all the other dreams that night because oftentimes they too have precognitive elements in them. One thing I’m seeing here quite a bit of, is that I break all my records down into scenes for each dream. Robert Waggoner: Well, I’ve never bothered to break them down to the depth that you have but I think in general terms you’re right.
But when you said that and when I read it again in your book and I saw your reasons for saying it, it made me feel like this surge of energy.
Robert Waggoner: As your listeners might guess, in a lucid dream you can pretty much do what you decide to do. But one time I realized that in waking life I often meditated and that I’d never tried that in a lucid dream. So I decided to meditate now with closing my eyes and the fascinating thing is once I closed my eyes and got into a meditative state, it was like almost instantaneously I had this incredible feeling of kind of transcendence and kind of oneness with everything that’s kind of beyond myself in a sense. And one thing that I think other people who have tried to meditate in a lucid dream have also had very powerful experiences. Andrew Paquette: This brings up another point and that is to someone who is not already interested in the subject of meditation or spiritual subjects but is interested in paranormal dreams because they just think it’s impossible. Robert Waggoner: Well, for the experiencer by being there you feel it and you feel it very deeply. Robert Waggoner: Well, in my mind the inner self, this inner awareness that exists, the conscious unconscious or the Self.
Andrew Paquette: Now, you know that I talk about something I call like a spirit guide in my book and you’ve probably heard this term from lots of other people also. All of a sudden, this hand reached around and grabbed my wrist and started pulling me up into the darkness. So I’ve had that occur in a number of occasions where a dream figure has announced to me that it was either a guardian or a guide.
Andrew Paquette: Okay, I’m just going to insert a tad here for the sake of some listeners who probably have a question about this. Andrew Paquette: What do you think that you’ve learned from these more spiritual experiences in dreams. I remember once a woman yelled out to the awareness behind the dream, “Let me see the beginning and the end of the universe.” All of a sudden she heard this voice which said, “The universe has no beginning and no end. But the beautiful thing about this, and I spend about the first 90 pages of my book in it, is that after 20 years of lucid dreaming, I decided to try to go beyond lucid dreaming. Andrew Paquette: By the way, I think I should mention here just for the sake of people listening that you do actually provide some exercises to help people have these kinds of experiences on their own.
What I did is instead of the hand example that you gave in the book, I pictured myself holding your book jacket and that would be the trigger to make me lucid. I know you have been talking to all these people personally and probably listening to their talks and reading up on it. Now, one thing that I did want to say about my getting precognitive information in a lucid dream, what I suggest in my book is that this would be a way of finally overcoming the objections of scientists to precognitive dream reports. So a lucid dreamer could, in a scientific study, become consciously aware, get the forward-looking information, wake up with that information, and hand it to the scientist. I believe that the difference is that you’re talking about using lucid dreaming as opposed to just any dreams and the difference would be exactly what? One thing I wanted to ask you a couple of minutes ago is sometimes I have people come up to me—you probably have this happen to you, as well—and they ask, “What is the practical value of this stuff?
Oftentimes when I get asked these questions about the practical value of dreams, they tend to be connected to the suggestion that the most practical use of dreams is probably related to gambling, actually. Robert Waggoner: I think there are more valuable aspects of lucid dreaming and also dreaming in a general sense. Secondly I’d say that lucid dreaming allows you to experiment within the subconscious mind and in dreaming and finally understand that reality from your lucid experimentation.
Third, it gives you spiritual access to this kind of reservoir of knowledge, this kind of inner information that you can access when you’re consciously aware in a dream. Andrew Paquette: What that makes me think of is the sort of accounts we hear from people who have had near-death experiences where they had some sort of severe physical trauma. Now the other aspect of this is that Buddhists see the value of lucid dreaming as helping us in the after-death state, in the Bardos State, and this kind of near-death experience state that instead of getting caught up in another reincarnational cycle or are drawn into Samsara as they say, the lucid dreamer has enough thoughtfulness to decide what they want to do with that moment. So it appears that goal is to invite the light, to basically become one with the non-dual experience of light and to ignore the family members and all the whatever, future reincarnation that might appear and be enticing to them. Forgive me, all you listeners out there who really don’t care about this stuff, but this is actually important stuff to me so I’m going to ask anyway.
So when I hear about, for instance, people in India or the people you’re talking about who are not in India but close by, are we talking Nepal or Tibet right now?
I’m wondering just from your knowledge of their practices, it is really completely centered around avoiding coming back? Robert Waggoner: The Buddhists will have to forgive me for this sweeping generalization of just making it that simple, but basically they’d say that between Yoga and lucid dreaming, initially it shows us the illusory nature of time and space and this waking reality. Then you begin to do like I did after 20 years of lucid dreaming, which is try to go beyond lucid dreaming.


Robert Waggoner: You know, a lot of the ideas that I’ve presented just briefly are much more expanded in the book. Lucid Nightmare Horror Map uses some unique mechanics, it has an interesting story line, jumpscares and side-quests!
The idea of a€?emerging into the new paradigma€™ translates into the sharing of new ideas that were once deemed too taboo.
Ita€™s easier for me to start lucid dreaming after Ia€™ve fallen asleep, as to skip the sleep paralysis step. For a lot of people, it isna€™t just blackness they see, its endless static of energy all subtlety buzzing around. An image starts out as a tiny dot in the center of my vision then rushes into me and I plunge into a different world.
Going over your past dreams just before you go to sleep helps refresh and focus the feeling of being lucid.
One time a good friend of mine asked me if I’d ever sought out the lottery numbers while lucid dreaming.
Just like you, there are lots of people out there who think lucid dreaming is all about narcissism and self-entertainment, but when you become consciously aware of the dream state you can actually use it to experiment. Naropa, the 10th Century Indian Buddhist Yogi, said that dream yoga, which is basically lucid dreaming, was one of the six paths to enlightenment.
You were talking about your inner self on the cover and throughout the book you use the term, “inner self.” I believe the term you use is there is your super-ego or id, something like that. After the conference you sent me a copy of Seth’s speech—that was very nice of you by the way, considering you’re off to Uganda after just dropping yourself off in Paris for a little while. I’d like to get into some examples of that in a moment, but do you feel that you ever receive information in those dreams, even if they’re not lucid, that you’re able to verify later as factual even though you didn’t really have any normal way of knowing the information? You know, I have and in my book, throughout it, I give numerous examples of using this kind of inner intent of questioning the awareness behind the dream to try to get valid information that I could later verify. That sounds quite a bit different from what I would consider to be a normal precognitive dream experience, at least based on what I know of the subject. What you would find is if you ask a question of the awareness behind the dream, it would depend on how you ask the question. I was playing around with this idea of getting forward-looking or future information so I announced in the dream that when I picked up the phone I would hear from the most important person who I was going to talk to the next day. So I waited a couple of weeks in waking reality and finally the phone rang one day and my wife said, “Hey, it’s your brother Donald on the phone.” I pick it up and he goes, “Robert, you are finally there,” which was exactly what he told me in the lucid dream. That bothered me because I’d already seen an 8 and I couldn’t figure out exactly what was happening.
What happened to him in that case is he saw his deceased mother in a dream, became lucidly aware, he and his mother had an incredible talk and reunion and at the end of it as she was getting ready to go, she turned to him and said, “One, nine, six, nine.” My friend said, “What?” And the mother again said “One, nine, six, nine,” and disappeared. He wakes up; he realizes that he grew up in Detroit and in 1969 there were big riots there. I think that’s why I got interested in dreaming just as a general subject as a young child. You’re saying that when you were a child, before you discovered lucid dreaming or had an idea what lucid dreaming was, you were already having this happen to you?
I would see the clock and all of a sudden the hands would start moving forward and then I would see something or hear something or the voice behind me would tell me to “Pay attention to what you’re seeing,” and tell me what the symbolism meant.
Now I want to ask you, how do you differentiate between those kinds of dreams and normal ones? So there are various ways that just a normal dreamer can realize or differentiate precognitive dreams from just regular dreams. It just so happens that at the moment you alerted me to the fact that you were available for this call, I was working on a very large spreadsheet related to a few dreams from my journal that I decided to make an extensive study of for a paper I intend to write for a journal article. Here is this possibility for something really unique and potentially quite interesting that I’d never even thought of before. All of a sudden, it was like the visual scene that I was looking at, it was like light started shooting out of it like parts of it were being stripped away like if you stripped away part of a projector screen. So it’s like when you’re consciously aware already at the level of the subconscious and you try a spiritual practice, oftentimes you’ll find it’s very much more powerful than the same sort of practice tried when you’re in the waking state. Here you’ve got this respectable guy saying it is possible and it happens all the time, so maybe I’ll listen to what that’s all about because I think this doesn’t make any sense. I’m wondering, what is it about an experience like that tells you that there is something genuine to it and something valuable of a spiritual or religious nature?
In lucid dreams there’s not very much stopping all of the energy from just being immediately sent or felt by you.
Do you think it’s fair to at least raise the possibility that you’re having experiences with characters like than on occasion, as well? As we got further and further up into the night sky, I realized it was a young woman and she responded. So I don’t know, however, if I would consider that as vast as the inner self or the awareness behind the dream. What you just described then is something that is not only against expectation for you, but it’s something that you don’t necessarily consciously desire to run into guides because this is something you either object to or just aren’t interested in. It’s something that is consistent with the experience of other people like myself, for instance. I mean, apart from just getting a sense of say, love for the universe, for some people it’s less specific. The universe is an everlasting cycle.” So you begin to see that this awareness behind the dream actually refutes the lucid dreamer when the lucid dreamer’s premise or assumption is incorrect. That’s when I began to have some very unusual experiences of what people call “the clear light,” and which are non-dual experiences.
From all that experience, have you gotten some kind of read on what the general attitude of dream researchers is to the idea that paranormal events are connected to things that can be described as spiritual or supportive of religion? About one-third of our members are therapists; another third are scientists or academic researchers of dreams.
Then the lucid dreamer and the scientist can both wait to see what actually occurs in the experiment.
I want to break it out a little bit because what you just described is up to a point quite similar to the kind of studies that Krippner did at the Saybrook Institute and the kind of research that Montague Ullman was doing at the Maimonides Research Institute in New York until they were closed. So a sender was trying to send an image or a picture or photo to a dreamer who was dreaming in the sleep lab. Like for instance, what’s the difference between doing it that way and recording dreams that appear to be precognitive while having those and later on checking them against later events?
That you’re picking the one dream out of a group of 10,000 dreams and tying it into an event and there doesn’t seem to be any linkage involved. Instead of getting a random future event that may well be every bit as precognitive as what you get in a lucid dream, with the lucid dream you know what it is as opposed to just being able to describe it and recognize it after the fact. Or you can save all these people who would otherwise be killed in an airplane crash or avert a war or whatever.
The person in lucid dreaming, there have been numerous scientific reports showing that it helps people overcome emotional trauma, like recurring nightmares from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder.
When you start to have these experiences, usually you realize that you can transpose them into your waking life and then live your current life more lucidly. A lot of us lucid dreamers become consciously aware when we see someone who is deceased because we realize, “Wait a second.
As I understand it anyway, one could look at our experience here on Earth as physical beings as one where we learn a great many things or we actually perform basic work or one kind or another. And they’re talking about this religious practice basically being centered around avoiding coming back to Earth.
So then as we begin to see that in lucid dreams and we begin to see that waking life is dream-like and dream-like is dream-like. That’s when you get to these very deep experiences, the non-dual experiences that tend to give you a sense of the source and I think forever changes your life.
For lucid dreamers out there who feel like they’re experiencing lucid dreams, I think they’re the ones who are most impressed by the book. When I find the center point of my vision, I can make the flat image of darkness look like a 3D room with a lot of depth to it.A  If I can focus on that without completely falling asleep, I can slip into lucid dreaming. It feels like therea€™s so much pressure I cana€™t breathe and I usually turn my head to the side and wake up. In the moment, it makes sense to manifest something to fly with that helps me, and for some reason a plastic bag does the job. When I read my old dream descriptions, a flood of memories and images come back like I had JUST had that dream.
When we see the value of the connection between us all, we can interact on the astral dimension!


Just for the sake of listeners who maybe don’t know exactly what lucid dreaming is, would you mind giving a very quick snapshot of what that is? For many people, they can perform some kind of heroic actions when they’re consciously aware in the dream.
So there are a lot of things that you can do with lucid dreaming but you do have to conceptually think about it differently and that’s why I wrote the book that I did. I know your training is as a psychologist and I see that kind of terminology throughout your book and in your conversation, as well.
The way that I came to this differentiation is when I became consciously aware of the dream state, I realized at one point that I could ignore all of the dream figures, ignore the setting, and just shout out questions to the awareness behind the dream and they would respond. I took a look at that and Jane Roberts—or if you want to say Seth you can say Seth—says something about how we have a permanent conscious state where we just direct our focus in one physical existence or another. So I picked up the phone and all of a sudden I could hear my wife happily chatting on the phone. His wife probably calls him all the time.” So it sounded to me, though, like what you’re saying is, what makes it interesting is it was the most important call of the day. And I do want to say that oftentimes in a lucid dream, when you all of a sudden decide to create an experiment, sometimes they’re not the most clever experiment.
So in any case there are all sorts of little examples like this of getting forward-looking information. He thought it was weird that his deceased mother would just start saying numbers at the end of the lucid dream.
So I realized early on that oftentimes precognitive dreams were heralded by this clock face with the hands spinning wildly. I find that they tend to be either all of the pieces of each scene are verified or none of them are. You’re talking about meditating within a lucid dream and I have to say that was one of the most interesting things I heard you say at the conference.
How do you determine for yourself whether you’re getting anything real out of something that really feels like a genuine spiritual experience of some kind in a dream like that? I do want to say that in other cases I’ve become consciously aware and I’ve yelled out to the awareness behind the dream to let me experience some sort of esoteric practice and sometimes I’ve had my mind just totally blown.
Do you have anything specific that you feel you’ve really gotten out of these dreams of a more spiritual nature?
Also, one thing I’ve realized from interacting with the awareness behind the dream is that it’s always trying its best to educate me.
As the former president of the International Association for the Study of Dreams, in that capacity you would have had quite a bit of exposure to the work of all sorts of people who research dreams in lots and lots of different ways.
Then about one-third are just people like myself who are very interested in dreaming and lucid dreams and take it from there.
That the event occurs and then somebody runs back to their dream journal and says, “Hey, I dreamt it three weeks ago. So what I’m saying here is lucid dreaming might be a way to actually help us validate what’s been happening for centuries, if not millennia, which is precognitive dreaming, telepathic and clairvoyant dreaming, and all these things that people call paranormal, which I think are very natural and normal.
In my particular case, I’m saying that you could broaden the experience to any number sort of experiments by the use of lucid dreaming.
Or you dream all of them and you remember them but you just don’t believe them because you don’t understand that nothing is the number zero. In my book there’s a whole chapter on people who have used lucid dreaming apparently to heal themselves when lucidly aware in the dream. You’ll understand your life better and you’ll be happier and you’ll make better life choices. And then later on somehow miraculously if you like, or non-miraculously if you prefer, they return to consciousness and they start talking about these experiences that are very similar from person to person.
But anyway, as it turns out, 23 months later my mom goes to the hospital with a heart condition and almost died.
It makes me wonder, what about all of the other useful things that they could be doing here?
I’ve been there and it’s awful.” Or do they actually have other things going on where they’re like it allows you to make the choice better so that if you do come back it works out better for you? Ita€™s always scary and uncomfortable – Ia€™m still learning how to fully get through it. It reassures me what Ia€™m doing is possible, but if the doubt remains present then Ia€™ve lost control. So a week later when the MegaLotto happened, he said he got the first three exactly right but then the other ones, the order had been goofed up. I’m wondering, do you differentiate the inner self as you term it in your book, from the id?
As I understand the subject, a person most often in a precognitive dream going to experience whatever the later event is in a more-or-less direct way. If you say, “Let me hear or let me see,” you’re either going to hear it or more likely to see it.
It wasn’t necessarily who was going to call that mattered in this dream, it was the content or quality of the call itself. Like on another occasion I became lucidly aware and I announced that when I picked up the phone I would hear the next word that I’d hear from one of my brothers, Donald.
Although the examples you just gave are perfectly responsive and I’m satisfied, could you give an example that’s more unusual? Then I turned my head away, looked back at it again and the next time I looked at it there were no numbers. Are you even able to reliably tell the difference or does this lucid state basically do it for you?
I’m not saying for everybody listening to this that it’s really the most interesting thing in the book. I stopped along the path and remembered, “Oh yeah, I want to meditate.” So I sat down cross-legged, lotus-style and was looking straight ahead and began to put my mind in a meditative state. I found that really interesting because the idea of spirit guides or guardians or that kind of thing, to me for whatever reason never appealed to me.
I show instances in my book where people have asked the awareness behind the dream for something and the awareness behind the dream has told them that they’re not ready for it, that they’re not properly focused. Do you feel like you’ve ever had a lucid dreaming experience of any kind that also fit into that same pattern? Then a few years after that, she returned to the hospital due to a heart condition caused by prescribed medicine that was causing heart trouble with people and she almost died again. But we’re able to be useful in a very functional, practical way to other people by adopting these lives. The astral plane exists right here, intertwined with the third dimension on a slightly higher frequency.
Ia€™m scared to fall and feel pain while lucid because I dona€™t fully believe that I control it.
Imagine hanging out with everyone you know, seeing past their physical being and loving them, for they are you. He said he became consciously aware and that he asked for the numbers of the MegaLotto or whatever it was called in his state, to appear when he opened up something.
I mean, when you’re awake and daydreaming you can pretend to save the world from nuclear disasters and all that kind of stuff. But what you’re talking about sounds almost like you’re calling out and asking for information and it comes to you in a verbal manner.
So it just shows that lucid dreaming might give us evidence that there is an existence in the afterlife. When I saw nothing I should have realized that zero was a number but it had never occurred to me, having never played this Pick Three Lottery, that zero was one of the numbers. If you don’t get it after three nights of having the same dream over and over, you have to realize that this dream is super-important and you’d better pay attention as it’s likely to occur. And as I was laying there in the stream, I shouted out to the night above me because at first I thought, “Oh, I should fly out to the stars,” and then I thought, “Oh why bother? I also like to look at my hands and body to confirm Ia€™m really experiencing it – although Ia€™ve never remembered to look at myself in the mirror.




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