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Location: The Netherlands For bonding (ply)wood to polyester, grind down the gelcoat of the polyester, and glue with epoxy glue. Before you glue the wood to the polyester, coat it several times with epoxy resin, then paint with 2K PU paint. Tremblay 228 » Thread Tools Show Printable Version Email this Page Display Modes Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode Search this Thread Advanced Search Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post fiberglass boat building? When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals.
Location: Canada replacing stringers I'm fairly new to boating, I don't know the slang and proper words of most things I'll be talking about here, so bare with me and educate me when needed. I got some 2X4 that have been sitting in the basement for over a year so it's safe to say they are dry. I'm on a tight budget, but I still want to make sure I don't sink first time I take her back to the lake. I have no idea how to change the rotten wood in the transom because it's got that pit right in front of it. I need help and advice as many of you seem very experienced in composite boat building and repair. Thus I would like to ask for (detailed) instructions, advices and everything that can be use- and helpful. Your labor can't be counted as worth much at all since you will take a lot of time to do the job right. Location: Milwaukee, WI If you are looking at learning how to work with fiberglass, this can be a good project. Another problem is that the crack goes through the whole hull so it should be cut into two halves actually.
Location: Eustis, FL The video isn't very helpful in your situation, as it's just a cosmetic repair type of thing. With the damaged areas aligned and braced into position, wet out all the areas with straight epoxy, then apply your fabrics. When this gets slightly tacky, apply an epoxy fillet mixture, of milled fibers and silica over the areas you just laid fabric on. I would not think twice for a hundred or so and having all the gear I would bang out the repair in a few hours work, then give the boat to a friend or such.
One trick is to bond down some battens (read paint sticks) over the repair area on the inside, grind out and do the glass work outside. So the top layer (gelcoat) will come after the layers (an top filler) had been built up, is that correct? The ply has a piece of plastic film to keep it from bonding to the hull during the outside repairs (the blue layer). Location: Eustis, FL A plywood backer is a good idea at first blush, but this assumes you're working with developed surfaces, which I'll bet aren't. My first blush ideal would do though: simple paint stick battens, but I am betting that a quick backer of luan ply will spring in and do the deed.
Location: Eustis, FL Damn, I was hoping she was, it would have been nice to see the old lass again.
Keeping the canoe light is a bit of problem as the best cover for the whole of the bottm would be Kevlar as its robust , and much better abrasive resistant and will take much more hard pounding and bashing against rocks etc etc choose your materials carefully and take extra care doing your repairs !! It is clear that I need some kind of backer since as I looak at the pictures I need to grind out 10-15 cm wide pieces. On the photos you can see areas where the top layer is cracked but the fiberglass may be undamaged.
I had a quick look at the westsystem guides yesterday, they are very-very good, I will learn a lot from them. I was just commenting on the presence of a 'V' shape in the hull not shown in my second drawing. I think you have the ideal- a backer(s) of some type is likely needed to keep alignment of the hull shell as the repair is done.
You might want to start by assessing if the hull is still fair as par mentioned in his first post.
The rigidity and length of the battens used will have a bearing on how much of hull form is carried from adjacent panel over the repair area- to rigid and a flat spot is created, too limp and the hull may have a bulge at the repair. There are many tricks one can employ such as tape pulled tight over the hull as a bonded in batten cures.
The goal is all the same- hold the hull fair and tapers aligned as the outside glass work is done. You will have to suss it out as you go just keeping in mind the issues that need addressing so that you end up with a credible repair. Location: Duluth, Minnesota Here is the boat, pump, resin trap, and the end product.
Originally Posted by Steve W Jorge, i also find that I get a drop in the first couple of minutes and then it holds, this is true of almost every bag, unless of course we have big leaks. Nice job, must have been fun getting it all to stick overhead Did you use spray tack to hold it all up there or lay it all on the plastic bag and lift it up as a stack? Location: Florida wow, that must have been a real ***** getting 25 layers up there!
Location: Duluth, Minnesota Thanks guys, yes it was a challenge getting the stack in place but compared to doing it layer at a time wet, a breeze.
Location: Gold Coast Australia Hi All - the results for the compression tests are in. When the resin line opens, there is an open pathway of very low resistance between the resin bucket directly into and under the bag via the feed line. After the front passes, i dont profess to know all the dynamics involved, however i often observe voids forming above the flow media after clamping the feed - afterwhich, the dynamics change again.
Hi Groper - this is not my observation - my observation is that the laminate stack gets thinner as the resin front passes. In a correctly built infusion bag the laminate springback is purely an internal force in the system and does not affect the flow process. Location: australia Well some of the great minds postulate that it is also caused by the spring pressure differential.

Additionally, Apparently the gas expansion is not linear, but more so, so presents as a rather large problem. Now back to the real world, a combination of details, can minimise the growth of the voids and is how a practical infusion worker minimises the negative effects. Location: Gold Coast Australia Hi Groper - do you want to do it in carbon or glass? Location: Gold Coast Australia Lavender have a long gel time infusion epoxy, and Ironbark Composites have a very, very long gel time epoxy (24hrs plus from memory). Working with NidaCore (Plascore) panels and Nida Core Bonding compound » Thread Tools Show Printable Version Email this Page Display Modes Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode Search this Thread Advanced Search Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post Infusing Panels and Ribs at same time?
How about posting some pictures of the mould you have to see what kind a boat you making !!
My advice is to build the first boat out of all glass first off and use vinylester resin throughout the whole construction . The key to making this baby hold together will be your internal grid frame system and how its fitted and how its fixed in place . Location: GREECE tunnels Will definitely use it because ethylene-vinyl so I will have lighter construction. Originally Posted by m3mm0s rib tunnels Will definitely use it because ethylene-vinyl so I will have lighter construction. I hope the third man will watch over you and if you have family you have good insurance for them !!. I used to make R,I,Bs and did development work for the company making rescue craft not that fast but able to take any kind of weather, anytime of the year .
Originally Posted by m3mm0s rib I would like from those who know how to tell me if I want to do my boat kevlar carbon how many layers will be needed and in what order. Poly ester is the bottom of the resin pile its the basic to make almost anything from its the lowest priced and plentiful . Next up the scale is vinylester , its the best of the ester resins has excilent properties and like i suggested you use it to make a glass boat first . Top of the pile is Epoxy if you are going to use carbon and Kevlar this is nessasary as Kevlar had enought strength to pull out of the other resins .
Dont just take one resin and think it is the only one ,you have to ask and do your home work to find the best one suited for your particular application . On the road to building this boat you are standing at the bottom of a huge mountain of knowledge and learning and havent really taken the first step on your way yet . This is a wonderful site and there are so many professional people that read and post here to help . Over the many years i have never taken things at face value , the resin and glass supplyer is there to make money and will sell any one any thing , good or bad doesnt really care!!
Location: GREECE Dude tounnel so far nobody has to say cheeky because I always mean what I said. Its ok just have to think that most peole dont know much till time goes by and reveals slowing what they know and what you dont know .
Originally Posted by daydreamsully Hi i am thinking about building my own rib but first im in research mode.
It has never been used (saved from a sunk ship by a diver) but its hull is damaged and there are some other minor issues with it (steering) in addition.
If I bought it I would try to repair it myself but I have no experience in that kind of job. I don't count the hours I might spend on it since I would do it in my free time and I enjoy manual work. Epoxy is better suited for a number of reasons, but mostly because it's much more novice friendly and considerably stronger too. Since it's Kevlar, this will eat up sanding materials and make a difficult to fair surface, but it has to be done.
There is a bit more work with the boat than I expected so I`m trying to beat down the price to the half and I might buy it then. We had a guy helping chase down the leaks and he was very patient with the leak detector, we are finally getting used to the thing. The boat owner and crew made a plywood box the size of the repair perimeter and filled it with spray foam to make a rough female mold of the bottom, then carved out space for the plumbing. The infusion discussion has touched upon the issue of springback quite a bit so I have asked a lab to do some compression tests on dry laminate stacks to establish the internal pressure due to the springback. Thus you have full atmospheric pressure under the bag at this time - which is the force pushing the resin in.
My current explanation for this is that the resin lubricates the stack and it compresses a small amount. That is, after the resin enters the bag, the dissolved gasses are at atmospheric plus spring pressure. If the vac is kept at 100%, The laminate will start to compress and get thinner provided the entire system is still flexible.
ATL are the only place I know of where to get this type of resin, is there anywhere else in aus? With each of the resin systems are many many differant types for a huge array of applications . If you can get a copy of Freeship or Delftship, and want to wrestle with the techniques, it will be a lot easier AND you can get the all important displacement and bouyancy calculations done automatically. There is access to the inner surface through the lid but it would be much more comfortable to remove the yellow top half.
At least 2 layers of 400 GPM biax bridging the cracks and holes, stagger any seams or use butt joints on the first layer and overlap these on the second. Just because they also grinded out the damaged area and tapered the edges similar to your advice. The damaged areas show up the weakness of the hull , sure its had a good old pounding but even so its not that strong , Me i would be using undirectionall glass but if if you have neve done repairs before double bias would be the next best choice !. This was used to tailor the glass stack which was then removed, we then installed the consumables and then the stack reinstalled, we then offered it up to the boat, sealed the bag and pulled a vacuum. A way to think of this is that if we put the stack into a press to create the part shape the press would compress the stack but it would not be able to springback.

If we assume a spring pressure of 150mbar, then what this means is that the dissolved gasses are at 1150mbar absolute (sea level infusion). Others switch off the vacuum and clamp both ends, yet still others reduce vacuum to ~85% at the time of clamping to eliminate the differential pressure. Glass is more forgiving and cheaper and you will have a chance to workout your construction schedualing for your carbon as you go along !! Thanks With carbon fibre, an epoxy resin will be needed as it will bond, whereas polyesters will not.
I am wondering how you got the positions and deadrise angles worked out on yoir stations on the rib? If there's a kink the boat needs to be braced back into position, so any repairs can hold her in the shape she needs to be. This taper will provide a place for the filler materials and new fabrics to live, without a bulge.
Just read up on the techniques and material choices and you'll be better armed to tackle this project.
Well, simply put a novice attempting to gel coat, with a reasonable finish and color match is just not very likely, to have much success.
If it suddenly drops then holds just below the water vapour temp for that pressure, then you still have moisture in the stack and you should keep the vac on for longer before trying again to get rid of the moisture. We could then remove the mold and then spent a lot of manipulating the stack inside the bag under low vacuum.
From testing many types of laminates over the years I know that when we infuse csm and multiaxials we & others get 30% resin by weight very regularly. Therefore, you need to SUM the 2 pressures inside the bag, combine the other dynamic effects, and you will get a NET INCREASE in preform thickness at this time (when the resin front reaches the location we are considering). Tuesday, more of the same, but by mid week more summer like weather, in the low 80's and higher humidity. You have some work to do with a grinder and a medium to fine disc and very gently scuff and grind and feather the damaged areas 50 to 100 mm around all damaged areas so the new glass will have a really good bond to the old surface !! My conditions usually Need about an hour on vac to get rid of all the moisture accumulated in a fairly clean new materials job.
This was really the biggest problem we had as with that many layers when you think you have it looking good then up the vacuum and compress the stack it all changes, ultimately though we got it pretty good and had no bridging in the sump root area. There are other bubbles that cannot due to being mechanically trapped, and still other gasses that are still in solution. As it thins out, the pressure inside the bag changes from 1150mbar down to 1000mbar, and equilibrium is established on both sides of the bag.
The motor that will hang are two outboard 300 horsepower V8 and I think it will reach 85 knots. Du Pont supply primed versions, although for your application, I would agree with landlubber in that kevlar is superfluous.
We did run 2 rows of mastic around the perimeter but not that far apart,and tried to leave a little slack in the bag between but I will have to try your method Peter, it sounds like a good plan. The aim of the test was to determine if the mechanical pressure agrees with atmospheric pressure thicknesses and if the stack is compressed multiple times what happens. During this equalisation, the absolute pressure drops, therefore any remaining gasses will expand. The damaged glass needs to be completely ground out untill you are back into the good glass again . All threaded fittings are sealed with Teflon tape and thread sealant but for the penetrations into the bag we used mastic and in some we kept adding as we chased down leaks. There were a couple of teething problems with the test because I asked the company owner to do it and he instructed a tech and in the translation I didn't get exactly what I wanted the first time around. A typical mast laminate can range from equal to AL in stiffness (70GPa) to say 90GPa using std modulus.
So the stacks have been compressed 6 times not 3 but I think it establishes what I expected to occur. Provided the resin is not locked, the expanding air pushes the resin further still, but we now have larger voids in our laminate compared to before clamping. There are a couple of changes I would like to implement in our process, first will be to use an absolute pressure gauge for setting up the bag and I would like to transition into working in only metric. Could you guys please lead me through exactly how you use the gauge as while ive seen lots of reference to them on forum threads ive never seen anyone explain how its used.
German advance composites who i will be buying it from say its only used in the feed line for setting up the bag but I thought vacmobile plumb it into the resin trap manifold but im not sure about this. The laminate clearly gets stiffer at about 1.5bar but we can't apply that sort of pressure with infusion (the test ran to the equivalent of 3bar). Since you are doing very good infusions I'd expect you can get 35Gpa from a glass laminate. The second and third were very similiar indicating that the mechanical bedding in may be at max. But since the Al mast is usually designed at SF=3+ but the glass mast is 3x stronger then you can build a glass mast much lighter then the alum mast but not as light as the CF.
After 3 load cycles if we apply 1bar pressure to the stack it results in a thickness equivalent of 25% resin by weight, which by experience is the lowest resin content acheivable using VIP. So if you either let the vacuum bed the stack down or encourage the stack to get thinner with a roller for instance 30-35% is the usual resin weight average and some form of debulk will get you 25-30% Rw.
If you get some S2 glass then you can build a 45Gpa laminate and it will be very light and cheap compared to aluminium, but again not as light as the CF (but much cheaper) So since you are building a mould you could do a glass one as a trial then graduate to carbon as the ultimate? The perimeter also clamps the bag down stopping membrane action in the bag helping a little bit more.

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