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Location: Milwaukee, WI If they are submerged, they are not surface drives. Location: Adriatic sea Mike Bellamy from Lancing marine wrote me several years ago that he uses LM surface drives on his boat and was quite happy with them. From my own experience, the noise and vibration due to the changing blade load are far more disturbing. In high speed applications, using small diameter high rpm submerged props, the blades are working in cavitation and are not very efficient. As for surfacing propellers characteristics, if the boat is a displacement hull one would not use a surfacing propeller on this application, rather one would use an appropriate propeller design. If your hull is a plaining one, you have a design that is compatible with surfacing propellers, then you could use a surfacing drive system.
Surface drives are unbelievably smooth, no vibration at all, up on the plane they are as smooth as jets. It might be clearer if I stated - no appendage drag compared with the normal appendages required for a submerged prop.
Any drive system which places a propeller at about 50% disk submergence, could (or should) be defined as a surface drive. Not sure I got the question, but the prop submergence is the key point for getting the efficiency.
Following point (2) above, the drive shaft comes out of the transom and the prop (at working condition) is about half out of the water. If you use twin drives, port and starboard, and keep a centreline keel, you should not have any problem.
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Construction Method and Materials: Cold-molded, sheathed –strip, or foam cored fiberglass construction. General Comments: With styling and arrangement closely based on BC gillnetters of the 1920-30’s, the Fidler 19 is a minimum BC Coastal displacement cruiser. With more cabin than cockpit she will keep the crew comfortable in the pouring rain or a stiff northwest on the nose.
Aimed at a cruising speed of 10 knots with only a 25HP outboard, she will have to be kept light to do this. The accommodations are what I call 2+2, a double or two singles below and also in the huge cockpit.
Location: St Augustine Fl, Thailand Electric Marine Propulsion, Rim Drive Technologies Have you guys given considerations to the 'rim drive' propulsion units? Location: United States Chinese Junk Yobarnacle, did you just call my future dreamboat Chinese junk? I need high tech design-engineered boat, utilizing proven low maintenance components while being mindful of my carbon footprint. Location: United States BTW, I read that our word Yacht came from Dutch Jaght from old Dutch Junko from Chinese Jun (boat) or Javanese Djong (boat) among other explanations. I will be happy to dream about my junk rigged, unstayed-aft-mast, motorsailor, powered by Chinese junk hybrid propulsion, navigated by Chinese made Garmin with Chinese made iPad. Sailor Alan, do you know where I can find transmission gear efficiency of keel drive, sail drive, outboard drive and inboard drive?
I am thinking, affordable long term live aboard cruiser should be made with Chinese parts, designed sustainably, assembled with local labor.
Various navies have experimented with ?shark skin? and ?Dolphin Skin? on their hulls, but both are dynamic, so a little bit hard to do mechanically. There is a ?engineering handbook? that lists all the efficiencies for chain, gear, toothed belt reductions. I don't think there is a systematic chart of propeller drive form, but some ?rules? do apply. Slow boats, hull speed, use long keels with imbedded shafts, probably because longitudinal stability is important, and skin friction is not.
Be aware, Lithium Iron batteries have a very delicate manufacturing process, and a poorly controlled one leaves particulates of Iron in the gel contained within it. Chinese Photovoltaic panels suffer the same issues, cheap and poor efficiency, again usually a result of poor purity in the ingredients. I have had bad experiences with the small (high speed?) diesel generators from China, not starting when needed. Many Chinese Lithium batteries have proven themselves in electric bicycle applications worldwide. Even best iconic US product, Apple's iPhone, is manufactured in China along with all IBM servers now. Location: Mexico, Florida The food preparation area doesn't HAVE to take up permanent space or be a designer galley. The one exception to semi-permanently installed, is a single burner sea-swing stove keeping the coffee hot. Location: Mexico, Florida oh, instead of just batteries, check out super-capacitors. If I was to sail with my son or my brother, then a 24-30' boat with camping-like set up would be sufficient and a single table for cooking and navigation is good enough. In my mono sport fishing boat, I can cook under hardtop on portable butane stove even though it has a standing galley in cabin. The main cabin of the Albin 'Intrepidos' formerly had vee berths with a table, a full galley and a standup head. The new central hull would have a cross section a bit like a 'box keel' but where the 'keel' comes up to the arma level.
This makes the central hull about 8? wide, and with enough flair to stow the floats under the extensions when on the trailer. I would go for a short mast, perhaps 10-12? high to launch a paragliding parachute for sailing. Good advice about the gimbaled single burner, ours is an old kettle with a single burner brazed on the bottom, and hung from a wire hook.
For the regular sea-swing, a pyramid style food grater brazed to a small circular metal plate that fits inside the pot holder, makes a good cabin heater. Location: United States Fast Economical Boats and Diesel Sailor Alan, that is a one heck of a trimaran. My preferred hull shape is double ended fat dory hull above water line with modified Seabright hull below water.
Yobarnacle, any advice since you should have more experience with this type of hull (bartender, trawler and barge). The true live aboard cruiser for a retired couple or a small family should be sufficiently furnished for living extended period away from the home in reasonable comfort.
Location: Mexico, Florida I'm not planning to cross any more oceans by boat.


Designed for wooden construction: Stitch and tape plywood on plywood bulkheads and stringers. Location: Netherlands Hull design for a small displacement boat Hi all. I have owned a few small boats, and decided that the next one, if at all possible, I would like to design and build myself. As you can see, there will be a long, narrow, canoe shaped keel under the boat, which will provide a large part of the required displacement. I'm curious to know that you all think of this design, and if I should venture along this path, or start over. Why not go all the way with the central hull and place little outer hulls on the chine for stability. Need to make it unsinkable with sealed or foam filled volume preferably up high under deck covering.
The front flat triangle shaped bow could be a perfect fixation for a full ruber 'bumper' which one can make with a poorable rubber set in a mould. Guest625101138 Previous Member   If you care to post an igs file of the boat I can do a performance prediction for you.
I have worked on similar concept using my pedal boat as a test ground but with an enclosed portion.
I think the steel is chosen as the readily available material and traditional Dutch boatbuilding material.
At the moment, displacement is 0.78 metric tons, with the waterline exactly on the outer chines. Of course, in the end it will weigh a bit more, because I yet have to add stations, engine mounting, etc. In general, I was thinking of about 75% of displacement in the keel but the ideal ratio might vary with length, immersed upper hull design and construction of the vessel. One question is: Is there a downside to reducing all hull panels to 3mm or even less in panels where it would be adequate? I know that they come semi up out of the water when on the plane but does it matter if most of the time they are submerged? I like the idea of exploring creeks and upriver so the less dangling down in the water the better. I do not see the problem because reversing is a slow process with submerged props and there is enough distance between the transom and the props for the water to escape.
I have been pondering the idea of surface drives for my project thingey based on my Fjord 27 which currently runs a very heavy, tired, low power, inconveniently positioned Volvo inboard. For example, if you are in need of a shallow draft propulsion system, then you can use a surfacing style of drive even on a displacement hull. Other design parameters (prop design, reduction gear ratio, transom distance, transitional flow control devices, ventilation, steering means, power trim etc.) can make some surface drive systems much different from others.
Lines and offsets, general construction, profile and arrangement, construction sections, 2 sheets full size bulkheads and stem patterns. Where can I find transmission efficiency of chain drive, V-belt, bevel gear, planetary gear, gear belt. In a water only use, this is a bit better than the ?soft curtain? systems, if only in directional stability. The smaller the contact area the higher efficiency, but this also depends on power, and size requirements. Like airplane design, you pick a configuration for other reasons, and make it as efficient as possible. Planning boats, even fast boats like destroyers, cut away the rear hull to reduce surface friction to a minimum. Even Li-Pos are reasonable batteries provided you follow strict battery charging regiment, cell voltage balancing and fire bag LiFePO4 are considered stable and thus command higher price among Chinese batteries. Siemens and Sanyo still manufacture highest efficiency PV panels, but top Chinese PV panel manufacturers' quality is on par with Siemens and Sanyo. But when I have other family aboard (wife, daughter, grandkids) for a week or more then we would absolutely need all that space especially in Inner Passage or during Pacific crossing.
Far less ?turnover? (heeling motion) and very fast down wind and off the wind, and easy to handle. Just because of better boat handling and safety in bar crossing and square swell conditions we have in West coast. Better fuel economy, easier availability worldwide, can burn most oil too, explosion safety, longer engine life, etc. This way it is very stable and most safety in all sea conditions, yet modified Seabright hull helps pounding and assist lift for semi-displacement speed I am seeking. I added cruiser since original poster wanted something he can cruise with his wife in protected water. I can not buy the assumption that minimalistic cutting board and bucket next to a dining table is a live aboard suitable for couple or a family. I know this is relative but I would say something Alaskan homesteader can live in reasonable comfort if moored in their property. It doesn't need to have a washing machine and an air-conditioning, but a microwave oven, a refrigerator, a bathroom with a shower and a desalinator is needed. Lets set total budget at launch off to $250k, so average Westerner can sell their house and afford this boat. I would like to build a small boat, that can carry a few people, for recreational purposes (swimming, socializing). Beam is 2m, and because you can put heavy stuff (batteries, fuel) in the keel, it will remain a stable boat. No idea if that would be realistic though for a boat this size, about 900 Kgs with passengers. She is a big hull with very small accommodation; actually the owner will use her as a day boat though there's just enough space in the foc'sl for a vee berth with toilet under.
I have asked Lancing how this issue is addressed by these drives but has anyone any idea how they might be in reverse judging by their appearance? Would I be best served by leaving the current keel on and what effect, adverse or otherwise, would that have on using a pair of surface drives?
Of course the efficiency is poor, but unless you think about starting a ferry service on a narrow part of a river, it is not a real problem. If you can drop the leg so the prop is submerged then it is more like a long-tail than a surface drive. If the prop can be set down so it works submerged then you could fit a conventional propeller and it would work as a submerged prop. Surface drives potential has been mainly exploited on high to very high speed applications; this is simply because, in this case, the system is so much more efficient that - in practice - there in no other viable option.
Cruise ships are very interested in overall economy, so tend to lead the way, but they are also interested in less draft, very low noise, and independent maneuverability, so these could be overriding factors.


Smaller boats also mess about trying to reduce shaft exposure, eventually getting to vertical drive shafts, OB, stern drives, and sail drives. Personal visits to China indicate the indigenous low speed, heavy, diesels are fantastically reliable, running for years un-loved in a field, usually pumping something. Lead acid has reasonable install price and is still good for ballast, but LiFePO4 is stable and price competitive in long run. Chinese have invested heavily in PV cells, lithium batteries and electric motor technologies. Chinese batteries are cheap because it doesn't follow Western distribution channels to get to us. For washing up, a tiny dollhouse sized stainless sink may be cute, but a wash bucket and rinse bucket set on deck by your feet is much more efficient. Multi hulls don't need swing mounted stove Girls like stable boat, lots of initial stability. But if it is raining and cold, I rather be in enclosed protected space where water boils faster.
The circuit gets too complicated and expensive even if super capacitors are inexpensive IMO. This will reduce pitch-pollinh for multihulls and yawing the monohull to set up for broaching. The highjacker added environmental factor as an highest priority issue for an affordability.
She wants something that can handle some of our grandkids or other guests for dinner and safely cross oceans without too much chumming.
A small air conditioner for a cabin would be nice though Remember cruising speed of 8-12 knots and top speed of 15 knots.
At that time, they probably where a very good design for the purpose (small vessels for moving a considerable amount of cargo through shallow waters at low speeds). Also, grown from raceboat experience, some hands-on knowledge was available in this field, so it was relatively easy to get it right.
The smaller the area, the higher the pressure, the higher the noise, and the higher the power density.
Roller chain drive is usually the best, not a coincidence that we see it on bicycles, and human powered aircraft. I suspect the sail drive should be lower drag at slow speeds, no ?base drag? at the transom like a OB or stern drive.
Cheap cells are usually subject to these kind of manufacturing faults, but expensive ones are not necessarily better, merely more expensive. The catamaran has stable large platform deck and private cabins but difficult to have large standing gathering space and reasonable windage. Regardless of who makes the diesel engine, it should be low RPM, non-turbo, low tech diesel then it is low maintenance and long life. 4 out of top 5 volume PV manufacturers are Chinese, the other is Korean owned company in China. Properly matched battery cells, good battery management circuitry and proper cell balancing will give 1000+ recharge cycles compared to 200+ recharge cycles on best US AGM batteries. 3' chop is fine with small wave piercing but 8-12' swell with 3' chop on top, which is typical for even Northern California water won't work with small wave piercing hull. Monthly operating cost including fuel should be less than $2,000 so minimal fixed income couple can afford to live on it. However, if you put 4 adults in them, and hang an outboard on the transom, you quickly see how inefficient they are.
Would this design be buildable in plywood and could it be easily lengthened to say 7 meters, keeping the width more or less the same ?
But when the stations and other structural re-inforcements are designed, material choice will of course be important. It might be possible to place the engine further aft, if I allow the rudder to reach out behind the transom. If you can make it like a long-tail so it raises and lowers with a small change in angle it will work better than tilting the leg of an outboard or stern drive. There is a lot of prejudice about low speed applications of semi-submerged propellers (surface) to low speed vessels, mainly due to lack of knowledge.
Construction is of moderate difficulty, for the more experienced amateur builder and depending on the choice of building material. Toothed belts and V belts are pretty bad, they need a lot of lateral tension to work properly. Military ships are also interested in efficiency, even if only to go fast, and they use variable pitch propellers for acceleration as well. Hence track record of a manufacturer, or constant personal surveillance (inspection) is necessary to ensure quality. Some are claim to have up to 90C rating, but I doubt that is a true engineering specification from reputable manufacturer. A 5 hp outboard will push them towards their hull speed very quickly, producing a massive wake, while not going ny faster than 6 Kn tops. We (at Flexitab) have tank tested a displacement ship in the naples tank, in self propulsion mode, and recorded an overall increase of efficiency of up to 13%. They are usually chosen for cheap, or a visually obvious life, ease of replacement, or on aircraft, a stated, specific, but limited life. The waters I would like to sail would be PNW Inner Passage and South Pacific Islands ICW and Mediterranean doesn't sound bad either.
Rare earth magnet required for high quality electric motor are mostly mined from China, and China is restricting exporting strategic rare earth materials and forcing manufacturers to setup shop in China with Chinese manufacturers. So we are seeking an affordable, environmental, offshore, ocean cruiser live aboard that can be trailered or demounted. I can get low tech 50-100 HP Chinese agricultural diesel engines for small Japanese diesel price. They seems to be prevalent in most RC hobby website, so I am guessing it may be RC hobby marketing talk where some degradation and occasional battery fire is acceptable.
Also, it will give the feeling of a boat with an inboard, while retaining the flexibility and simplicity of using outboards. So, in our opinion, there is not a single reason in the world why cruisers should not use an appropriate surface drive.



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