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Nicholas Pileggi barely knew who mobster Henry Hill was when he accepted the offer to write his story, but it turned out to be the best decision he ever made. Both Goodfellas and Casino exposed the truth behind the criminal underworld by focusing on a handful of central characters.
I met with Nicholas Pileggi in his New York home while he was fielding phone calls and working on scripts. Well, because I started as a police reporter, which is sort of the lowest level of journalism and I just got stuck there. I covered Albert Anastasia getting shot, I covered the Joe Colombo Civil Rights League, I covered all this stuff that we now look on history of the period and say, “oh boy, that really happened” and I covered all that stuff. When the book was finished, New York Magazine bought it, condensed it into two chapters and put it on the cover of the magazine, which was a great launch for the book.
When you first started writing Wiseguy, was it difficult to get the central characters in the story to talk?
There were a number of books about (the mafia) at the time, but there were no books that I could tell from the point of view of a really little guy. Do you feel keeping the focus of the story of Goodfellas and Casino to just a few central people was better than having a lot of characters in the film?
And in Goodfellas, Henry’s downfall with cocaine symbolizes the entire mob’s downfall with drugs. No, I think we write the scenes as best we can and sometimes when you’re lucky, the actor has really gotten into that character and something occurs to the actor to try something in addition or better to the script.
When you do a movie with Marty, when you’re doing scene breakdowns, he’s already storyboarding. Well, there was too much violence, there was too much “fuck”, it was too long, seventy one people walked out…That’s why they didn’t open us in a lot of theaters.
So it was almost like in the seventies when a movie would play the small theaters first and it would build. When you were preparing to make Casino a film, with Goodfellas as revered as it was, were there any concerns about following it up?
Both Goodfellas and Casino not only showed the gangsters making money and the violence but it also showed the turmoil it caused at home in the marriages.
You can’t write about the events of these lives just talking about their professional guise.
To the readers who want to be the next great screenwriters, what advice would you give them?
I think one of the things that’s really interesting to me, I get a lot of kids coming to me that are smart, a lot smarter than I was at their age. So my suggestion to a lot of them, is if you’ve got the time is go out and (get a job) and keep notes.
The resulting book, Wiseguy, became a best-seller that Mario Puzo himself called, “One of the few true pictures of the criminal life.” It also attracted the attention of Martin Scorsese who saw a movie in it’s pages.
Goodfellas would go on to become one of the most influential films of the ‘90’s and the frame of reference for countless young directors.
On the wall of his office is the painting from the dinner table scene in Goodfellas (“One dog goes one way, one dog goes the other way…”) which was painted by his mother, and a photo of his wife, Nora Ephron, directing a film. My last two years in college, I got a job as a messenger then later a copy boy at the Associated Press. I didn’t finish it for about three years, it took a long time to do because I was working at the same time as I was writing the book. A new book would be from the point of view of a little guy who’s basically like a solider in Napoleon’s army. I think reporters are clearly in danger if they’re in Honduras or if they’re in war zones where you have insurgents and fourteen year old kids with AK-47’s. See, the old guys like Paul Vario (name changed to Paul Cicero in the film) didn’t want anybody in narcotics, but he didn’t need the money from narcotics. Tommy DeSimone who was loosely based on Joe Pesci’s character was over six feet tall and unbelievably handsome.
He’d say, “I want a window shot”, and he makes a little drawing of a window with an eye looking out. Now they’re out of college, they know movies and they would like to get into screenwriting.
Pileggi and Scorsese collaborated on a script that went through twelve drafts and as he told Scorsese biographer Mary Pat Kelley, “every one of those drafts was fun”. Pileggi then wrote Casino which told the story of how the mob controlled gambling, how they eventually got their foothold into Vegas, and how they lost that power forever. In Goodfellas, Henry Hill finds the only way out of the mob is to betray the only family he’s ever known. There were videotapes everywhere of the Martin and Lewis show for research and a bottle of Dean Martin “Amore” wine.
I worked at the AP for seventeen years and usually what would happen is you would work two or three years as a police reporter, then go into rewrite, then to the bureau desk and the foreign desk.
But I think the thing that stands out is no one event but it’s the ambiance, the style, the essence and the attitudes of the time.

You gotta remember the only way I got that book was that he gave himself up before I got into it.
Casino was a much more complicated story because it was really the story of an industry, how that industry works and the history of that industry, otherwise you don’t understand it. Paul was getting all the loan shark money, all the gambling money, he was an old guy, he had a lot of cash. People think Goodfellas is a violent movie but I see movies all the time where people are getting stabbed. Joe will never be over six feet and he’s good looking but not a handsome matinee idol type.
In the “You make me laugh scene”, Joe had actually seen something like that happen in a mob social club with a gangster. In other words, you can get a job in a company, if you could ever get a job as a reporter somewhere in the mid-West, it doesn’t matter where it is, you don’t have to work for the Times, you’re not going to be a journalist. Again, another natural for the big screen and another successful collaboration for Scorsese and Pileggi. Many of the books that cram his shelves have the words blood, honor, money and betrayal in the titles. But I never got there, I never even got into the office to write, I just always wound up being a police reporter until I was thirty.
I had seen everything he had done including the movie he did with his mother and father, Italian American.
We needed the scenes with the little kid looking at this world and in the end when he betrays it all. I think because it was so vividly done and the actors were so good that the violence impacted the audience. They are the richest people in their neighborhoods and they don’t leave their neighborhoods.
What’s the relationship with their wives; with their kids; how does that impact the narrative? But what they don’t have is they don’t have any stories, in a sense, because they haven’t done anything. Pileggi’s way of focusing on these characters and making them real to the reader is a perfect match for Scorsese’s film-making, which never flinches when the going gets rough. One book on Nick’s shelf could sum up why Goodfellas and Casino have appealed to so many film-goers: “Criminals are Human Too”.
But I got it, I was an English major at school, and I loved being in the forefront of what was happening. His lawyer went around to publishers and said, “Listen, we got a great book here in this guy. They couldn’t talk to him 24 hours a day, so when they no longer wanted him, I would be able to interview him. There was a message at New York Magazine that he had called and I thought it was my friend (film critic) David Denby. We knew where we were going, then it was just a matter of what from the book do we want in the movie and how the scenes are going to break down. The people on the set had no idea what he was going to say and that’s why they all looked so shocked. You think of a cult movie as something that a couple of hundred thousand people like and they have secret screenings of it at midnight. The scene they wanted to take out was the scene where Henry is being followed by the helicopter, which of course is the whole disillusion of the movie. They haven’t lived in a way…most of them have not been the subjects of terrible deprivation. Even if you got a job as a legal liaison, a community affairs worker for the police department, without even a badge, someone who works in a station house, you would see more about life, especially if you are artistically inclined and want to do that work.
Then, I began to do magazine articles, usually about the only subject I knew which was cops and robbers and courts. You get the emotional peaks, you get a sense of what the emotional resonance of the period was. You wanna talk to him?” Simon and Schuster bought the idea and they went around looking for writers to write. Two interesting things happened: One, everything he told the government, which he told me of course, was true.
The people he was testifying against were privy to everything the government was going to use against him. He didn’t have Vario’s bookmaking operations going, he didn’t have the loansharking, he didn’t own forty restaurants.
When you show violence in a movie, I think it should be real violence because it’s not fun. They are part of that social community and they are looked up to as terrible and terrifying people, but they also know them.
Joe told Marty, “I’m gonna try something, just keep going.” Joe got started and their fear was that these were lines they hadn’t heard. But Goodfellas was really a major commercial movie and it’s quite fascinating that it had that appeal. He read Wiseguy, thought about it, he would stay up at night, look at his movies, think about it – but that’s what he’s doing, he’s putting the movie together in his head.

Geri was dead by the time I wrote Casino, but I got a hold of her daughter, her sister, who was invaluable, one of her friends who was a hooker, people who drove her around in cars. They have good teeth, they don’t have peptic ulcers that no one’s taken care of, they’re not going blind with glaucoma because their mothers haven’t watched their eyes, their mothers aren’t drug addicts where they’re beaten up by boyfriends. It’s so much better to get that kind of reality-based experience for a couple of years, any kind of experience. The thing that everybody was interested in the next day, the reporter was at the day before. You notice in the book, once in a while they’d come to the Copacabana, and that’s a big day in the city. Because if he ever lied to the government, they would throw him out of the witness protection program and he’d be dead in a week. He was out hustling all the time, they were stealing liquor, grabbing suitcases out of Kennedy Airport.
I love The Terminator, but you watch that film and thousands of people get murdered and in the end it doesn’t matter, because it’s like a cartoon. Work in a Big Mac place, whatever is available to you in a professional capacity, you’ll find somewhere in there the idea for a movie.
What he was telling me, I could then check with the government and they were happy to check with me because they didn’t know whether he was telling me new stuff.
I worked on Casino for years until I found the people through whom I could tell the story of the Casino industry. After we did that, we looked at and he said, “It’s too slow, how else can we open it?” I said, “What about the scene where he’s got the guy in the trunk of the car and they hear him knocking?” So he knew to start with energy. When he got killed, a lot of people were really sorry to see Joe out of the movie because he brought so much energy to it. If they have a wedding, a christening, that’s who they invite; the people from the neighborhood. I had the man who was the master gambler who they needed to run the Casinos, the mobsters who put together the connections, the Teamsters to make the loan, the front man who got the money from the mobsters and the Mafia muscle-man who was there to keep everybody in place.
You see somebody get hit in the head with a lead pipe, and he shrugs it off – Bullshit!
The second thing that was very important in this case was that he was being questioned by FBI agents and U.S. The bosses were in total control, the mob guys in their twenties had nowhere to go and they didn’t want to sit around like a bunch of jerks waiting to get in. He’ll be three months getting out of the hospital, he’ll have double vision, ringing in his ears-the effects that violence have on the body are unbelievable and so it should be depicted for the price you have to pay. But they can never trust anybody outside of their little group and as you see in the end of the movie, they can’t even trust the little group. I could of written the script for Wiseguy, somebody could of given me a couple of bucks to write it and then they could have given it to some director and had another gangster movie.
It’s very important to have complete characters because then people forget they’re reading non-fiction.
Work experience is invaluable because as a result of that experience, and the whole time you’re taking notes, people are exposing themselves to you like you would never get them to expose themselves.
But if you can pick up the mood, the quality of the people, the lifestyles of the people that don’t get on the front page of the newspaper, that’s the essence of the period that allows you to make whatever you’re writing much more vivid and much more accessible. They came apart on coke, they came apart on greed and they all started killing each other because they didn’t trust each other. It was the perfect dramatic story through which we could tell the story of the Casino industry and that’s what we made a movie about. These are really professional askers of questions because they have more information than reporters ever have going into debriefings. Then you go from this violent scene to these nice guys hangin’ around, he always wanted to be one of them, he’d rather be a wiseguy than the president of the United States. They knew exactly what to ask him and as a result, when he would come to talk to me, he would of been debriefed and reminded of things he would of never thought to tell me. I like Frank Rosenthal (name changed to Ace Rothstein in the film) very much, I think he’s a charming smart guy but lots of people just hated him.
We’ve taken different paths in life but I feel so at home, so comfortable working with him. We didn’t work it out that way, I didn’t plan it that way, it was only after that I looked back on it that I realized what a blessing it had been that I was debriefing him the same time the government was.
In the film, when Ray Liotta says “How much money you want?” and she (Lorraine Bracco) goes, “Like that” (holds his fingers apart a few inches), I didn’t make that up, that’s the way they talked. Once I got him talking about growing up and they got him talking about the same subject…you know what happens when you start remembering what it was like in high school, the more you think about it, the more you remember.
He’s not an endearing person at all, he’s mean, he’s mean to his wife, he’s obsessive about numbers.

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